Justice Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome, colleagues. This is meeting number 88 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

We are here today to continue our study of Bill C-40, an act to amend the Criminal Code, to make consequential amendments to other acts and to repeal a regulation on miscarriage of justice reviews.

I think you all know the rules by now, but I'm happy to read them at some point, if need be.

With us today we have two witnesses from the Department of Justice.

They are Julie Besner, senior counsel, public law and legislative services sector, and Shannon Davis‑Ermuth, acting general counsel and director.

Welcome.

I'm ready to start the clause-by-clause.

Before I do so, I will recognize Monsieur Fortin on a point of order.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just want to mention that, a little while ago, we received two notices of meetings for two meetings being held tomorrow. That isn't in keeping with the rules of procedure, which require 48 hours' notice, so I would ask that you revise the notices of meetings. If you really want the committee to meet Saturday or Sunday, please tell me, but holding a meeting tomorrow seems to be in breach of the rules.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you for pointing that out, Mr. Fortin.

Go ahead, Mr. Caputo.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First off, before we really get going, I have a point of order. I know that our two lawyers and legal experts are here. Obviously, we welcome them. Obviously, these sometimes cannot be the easiest of times, to sit here and watch Parliament, so we thank them for being here and exercising such patience and diligence to be ready at a moment's notice. First and foremost, I want to say that.

Madam Chair, my recollection is that we were to have the minister here. We don't have the minister here. I am inquiring as to how and why that occurred.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

It's because of you.

[An hon. member]

What?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Okay, that's fabulous.

Thank you. I will respond to that—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Okay. What we're going to do is—

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

No, he has a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Would you like me to take all points of order and make notes and then respond to all of them? Let's do that.

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Yes. I think, in this particular case, it's probably very appropriate.

Of all the committees I have sat on—and I have sat on plenty, not as a permanent member but certainly floating from time to time, depending on what the issue is—I can tell you something that I think is testament to both your chairing abilities and those of Mr. Sarai, our previous chair. We generally are a collegial group. We get the job done.

More importantly, we are respectful of each other. We have disagreed rather strenuously on pieces of legislation and on points of order, but at the end of the day—and I think to all the lawyers sitting at this table, particularly Mr. Mendicino, Mr. Maloney, me, Mr. Caputo and Mr. Van Popta—

[An hon. member]

Don't forget about Mr. Housefather.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Oh, I'm sorry.

I apologize, Mr. Housefather. I didn't know your background.

[An hon. member]

He's an eminent litigator.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There's also Monsieur Fortin.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

And me. You've named everyone else.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm sorry. I'm in the doghouse.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

There's our chair as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I'm going to insist that you start that again, please, because that's not respectful, and I know you didn't mean it that way.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I absolutely did not, and I thank you for the ability to correct a very obvious faux pas on my part. With a very minor exception, everyone who sits on this committee has a law degree, and I'm aware of that.

I'm particularly talking to those individuals who have litigation experience. I don't know about Mr. Housefather's background, but Mr. Maloney, Mr. Mendicino, Mr. Moore, Mr. Caputo, Monsieur Fortin, I believe, and I have litigation experience.

The reason I'm suggesting we go down this path very momentarily is that when you are in a litigation environment, whether that's a tribunal, a committee room or a courtroom, you fight like gladiators. You're advancing your position. In my case, it was advancing the interests of the state, representing the Crown. Mr. Mendicino did the same thing on behalf of the Department of Justice.

Then you leave the courtroom and you are collegial with your opposing counsel. You shake hands; you may engage in a discussion or you may have coffee, etc.

I'd like to believe that my experience, as limited as it has been since my election in September 2021, has been a very positive experience, particularly on justice. Justice is primarily my home in terms of my committee work. I've always felt a warmth, a generosity and a kinship with all the members of this committee. As I said, we may disagree, but we walk out of this room, just like in a courtroom, and we're collegial with each other.

I am bringing this to the chair's attention because I'm prepared to give Mr. Garrison the benefit of the doubt on this. I do respect Mr. Garrison, but I did not appreciate the outburst that he displayed. It was directed toward my colleague, Mr. Caputo, and inferred that we are to blame for the sudden notice of meeting that was delivered to our inboxes.

I'd ask Mr. Garrison to perhaps reflect upon that. If it was delivered with some degree of malice or intent, I think it's disrespectful. I think it's unparliamentary, and I am asking for an apology and a retraction.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Are there any other points of—

My God, I'm going to say this. This is not a good sign. Everybody in front of me is a gentleman.

Are there any other points of order around the table, gentlemen?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm sorry. Mr. Brock made his point of order.

Madam Chair, you're the chair. You have the ability to chair the meeting as you see fit. I'm not trying to usurp that or take that away.

I would hope that we could do as follows: I've asked a question on a point of order. If you're sure you're prepared to answer that question, I may have follow-ups, and then we can go from there. My hope is that we can have a civilized discussion.

We don't have the minister here. The question I have is, why?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

All right. Are you all ready to hear my responses without interrupting?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Certainly. I may have a follow-up question after, but you go ahead—uninterrupted, of course.