Evidence of meeting #88 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-40.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jean-François Lafleur
Julie Besner  Senior Counsel, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

That's fabulous. Thank you.

We started with Bill C-40. That was what we were reviewing. We did not conclude that.

My role as chair is to call meetings and set a number of administrative tasks, so within my role I decided to continue with what we had not yet started, which was Bill C-40, which we came back to at the last meeting. We didn't do that at the last meeting either, and to be fair to Mr. Garrison, my recollection of the last meeting—and I believe it went on for over two hours—was that members of the Conservative Party had a number of things to address, and we started to address them.

I'm not sure if they're finished or not, and so I am allowing a lot of time to ensure that members of the Conservative Party and anyone else who wishes to has plenty of time to address those. That is why, in my capacity as chair—and I can give you the page number if you like, and I know you will like, so I have it ready—I specifically scheduled meetings tomorrow, just to ensure that the Conservative Party members have enough time to address whatever points they would like to address, in the hope of concluding clause-by-clause on Bill C-40, which, in my recollection, all the parties in the room have pretty much come to an agreement on. That would be the end result of my meetings right now, to ensure that at least, at minimum, I get the clause-by-clause done, so that we can deal with other matters that were scheduled.

We started a speaking order. Thank you, Mr. Clerk, for writing it down.

I believe Mr. Moore is on that list, so Mr. Moore, I go over to you.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

You haven't ruled on my point of order, Madam Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Hold on.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I'd like you to rule on my point of order regarding whether the notices of meetings are valid. I can read you the rules, if you like. We weren't given 48 hours' notice, so we can't meet tomorrow morning. I want to make that clear. I am on duty all night for votes, but I can't stay up 24 hours a day, five days in a row.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

The 48 hours' notice is given as a courtesy. It's not a rule. It's not something committee chairs have to follow.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I'm going to send it to you, in that case.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

If you have something else to raise, we can discuss it after.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

May I address what you just said, please, Madam Chair?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Oh, I don't know. Ask Mr. Moore if he will let you go before him.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Well, ultimately, you're the chair. I'm sure Mr. Moore won't mind.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

No. Listen, I don't want to get between you two, so please, the floor is yours.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

He has a mean left hook, Madam Chair, but I'm up to the challenge.

My question is this. I get that everybody has an interest in Bill C-40, and we've all heard capable witnesses and we have departmental officials here. I understand that.

The minister was set to be here on the estimates. That, itself, is also quite serious, so what I'm asking is, why don't we have the minister here? Secondly, was there any consultation that was undertaken in that circumstance? I certainly wasn't consulted on that.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Do you want me to respond, then?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

You're welcome to. I would prefer to just have a dialogue.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Why is the minister not here? I've already replied to that. I have nothing more to add.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

With respect, you said that we had to go on to Bill C-40.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

We hadn't concluded Bill C-40, so that's correct: We had to conclude that first.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Your view was that.... You mentioned at least three times that the Conservatives had a lot to say. That's fine, but the minister also has a lot to say, and we also have questions for the minister on behalf of Canadians, so my question again is, why was Bill C-40 put ahead of the minister, and what consultations were made in making that decision in your capacity as chair?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

The consultations that were made were my consultations, in looking at the schedule, the meetings that we have, the witnesses we have arranged and the order of things I have to have finished. I need to have Bill C-40 concluded before I go to anything else, because that was agreed to before by everyone.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I'm sorry. If I understand you correctly, Madam Chair, your position is that the committee has said we will not be dealing with anything, including the minister, until Bill C-40 is done. Is that your position?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

That's absolutely correct.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Maybe my colleagues can help me out. I don't recall our saying that we would pre-empt the minister as well on that.

Was there an agreement to that?

December 7th, 2023 / 3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Mr. Caputo, that was the reason we scheduled both Bill C-321, which I reported on yesterday, clause-by-clause having been successfully concluded at this committee, and Bill C-40. Those two needed to be dealt with and were on the order of business to be concluded.

It didn't make any difference to the minister's availability and his appearances as to which date he appeared, because as long as he appears..., and I'm sure he's still willing to appear.

If we can continue with our business and do what we need to do, I am sure we can call him again to appear.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

When does he have to appear by for supplementary estimates? I don't know the rule on that.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

That's over and done with. That would have been a week ago, I think. There was a motion that it be, at the latest, on December 7.