Justice Committee on Oct. 28th, 2025

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

How would you see trauma-informed practices helping to reduce repeat offending and improve community safety over the long term?

[Patrick Rivard]

One thing that occurs with offenders is that at times they become traumatized by their own acts of violence. Of course, they need to be accountable to that, no matter what, but there needs to be some understanding of that. There was some conversation by the panel around rehabilitation and understanding rehab. A lot of insights can be provided if we understand that. They may not be in jail forever. That's where community can play a big part in assisting our police officers.

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

We've come to the end of the second round. For the third round, we will get everyone in. I just cut everyone by 20%. Everyone who had five minutes will have four minutes.

Mr. Fortin, you will have two minutes instead of two and a half, given the circumstances. That will bring us close to 6:30.

I'll just be a little more rigorous in cutting people off so that everyone gets the opportunity to ask questions. It will be Mr. Gill for four minutes; James Maloney, Rhéal Fortin and Roman again for four minutes; and then it will be Jamie again.

Thank you.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to everyone for coming today.

My questions are for Mr. Dalrymple.

Communities like Brampton and across Canada are seeing repeat violent offenders released. Prosecutors can't even finish the paperwork. Doesn't that show that the system is failing at every level?

[Adam Dalrymple]

The system is not properly funded to support the objectives of the legislatures. We need more resources. We need to ensure that we keep the ratio of accused to prosecutors low. There needs to be some guidance on that issue from the federal government. It is critical that we not simply pass new laws without ensuring that there are the resources to carry out the laws so that prosecutors can make quality submissions to a court to persuade a judge to see it from their perspective and from the public interest perspective. It is not simply enough to change a law. You need to make sure that the downstream resources are present to have the desired impact.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Do you believe that the Liberal government has done enough to ensure that Crown offices have the tools and staff they need to enforce meaningful bail reforms?

[Adam Dalrymple]

It is the responsibility, of course, of the provincial governments to ensure that their provincial prosecution services are properly supported—that they are properly staffed by prosecutors and support staff and have adequate technology to carry out prosecutions in the public interest.

If there needs to be funding, it needs to come from a level of government. Of course, it appears that it should come from the provincial level of government. However, as you know, the federal government tends to have significantly more resources to deal with these matters.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

The Liberals seem content to blame provinces and courts for bail breakdowns. From where you sit, is this a leadership problem in Ottawa—a refusal to give prosecutors the tools and the resources that they need to keep people safe?

[Adam Dalrymple]

We question how helpful it is for different levels of government to blame other levels of government.

The objective is clear: We want to uphold the rule of law and to protect law-abiding Canadians. To do that, the governments need to work together. They need to think through the whole process holistically, as we've said, to ensure that it is properly resourced from beginning to end.

If a level of government is going to take the lead on reform, it certainly needs to coordinate with the provincial—and, to an extent, municipal—levels of government to ensure that the desired impact will be achieved. You need to make sure you have the resources to do it.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

My next question is for the commissioner.

Commissioner, you have testified that violent offenders committing crimes while out on bail are not rare, yet after years of Liberal promises, nothing has changed. How many more tragedies do we need before this government acts?

[Thomas Carrique]

I don't know that I can answer that question, sir. I am hoping that the time to act is now, as I have previously stated.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

In Brampton, violent crime involving offenders already on bail is becoming an almost weekly headline. When you see this blatantly repeated across the country, does it confirm what policing leaders have warned, that Liberal bail policies have made Canada less safe?

[Thomas Carrique]

I can't say that bail policies exclusively have made Canadians less safe. They certainly have contributed to the current state of concern over public safety, and there are a number of other factors, including how we're dealing with drugs in our communities, organized crime and lawful access. There is a whole list of things that we need to turn our attention to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you, both.

Mr. Maloney, you have four minutes.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Mr. Dalrymple, I'm going to pick up with you again.

The Conservatives constantly accuse us of trying to blame the provinces. I'm not going to provide a civics lesson here; I'm just going to highlight what you've already said. Each level of government is constitutionally bound by the responsibilities that are set out. We're responsible for passing the laws. We do not administer the justice system in British Columbia, Alberta or any other province, so it's not a case of blame. We can pass these laws, and it goes back to what you and I talked about before, about overburdening a system that's under-resourced.

I do want to pick up on something that you just said. You said that the feds seem to have more resources. That frightens me, frankly. People like to blame the federal government on the one hand, but provinces get very upset when we try to enter into their jurisdiction. They're happy to take our money, though.

How does it become a federal responsibility, in your opinion, if the system is under-resourced at the provincial level?

[Adam Dalrymple]

Ultimately, this is a collaborative effort. I will leave it to the politicians to decide how they're going to make it work to achieve the outcome that we desire.

One example I would like to put forward is what we've been calling for: a national bail information repository or system. As you probably know, across the country there is a patchwork of different bail information systems that our prosecutors are using. As someone who has practised on the front lines, I can attest to how difficult it can be to get information on warrants, outstanding orders and conditions of court when someone is moving across the country, as many offenders do. Having the federal government take the lead on something like that may be of great utility.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

That's helpful, and I agree with you completely.

In terms of provincial responsibility—again, I'll use the Ontario example—we've been asking the province for datasets for some time now, and we're having trouble getting them. Be that as it may, I'm going to switch over to the morale issue that we talked about before.

One of the problems with this entire discussion is that there's a lot of rhetoric being thrown around at all levels, and nobody is immune to blame for that.

Earlier today, we had testimony from a witness from the Police Association of Ontario who said we should pass this bill immediately, with no politics and no political stunts.

We've seen time and time again politicians amp up the rhetoric using slogans such as “jail, not bail”. I've seen politicians go on television after a crime has been committed and talk about the failure of the bail system before the person has even been apprehended or before they even know who committed the crime.

Maybe I'll ask this of you, Commissioner Carrique, because I have serious concerns. Look, I'm worried about the morale issue as much as you are, but does it concern you that politicians take this type of approach when they're talking about an issue that's so important?

[Thomas Carrique]

What concerns me is that we're not leveraging the opportunity to work collaboratively as much as we should be. I highly doubt there's anyone in this room who is more concerned about the morale of my police officers than I am. This is an opportunity for us to address that through responsible decision-making that prioritizes public safety over partisan policy. This is a rare opportunity, and I'm hoping we will see it leveraged.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I will end by simply saying that I couldn't agree with you more. I hope that your appeal lands with everybody listening today and beyond, and we can get this bill passed quickly and move this issue forward.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Gélinas, I'll start with you. Right now, we know that our prisons are pretty much full. We often hear that they are overflowing, and that people given short sentences are simply sent home and come back to jail later. It seems to me that this problem needs to be resolved. We all agree, at least most of us, that bail conditions need to be tightened to prevent just anyone from being released under any circumstances.

At this point, should we invest more in rehabilitation, education and prevention in our community organizations, schools and so on, or should we invest in building more prisons or expanding existing prisons to hold more prisoners? Where do you think we should invest our energy, money and time?

[André Gélinas]

I think everywhere, actually. Once again, we obviously can't set aside the prevention aspect. We have to make sure that people don't drift into crime. That said, once people make that fatal decision, it also takes resources to keep them behind bars. In cases where, as you say, offenders with very short sentences are released quickly, what worries me is that there is no chance for rehabilitation. We often hear in provincial sentencing cases that inmates aren't there for very long, that it's a revolving door and that offenders aren't following rehabilitation programs.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You say there are no rehabilitation programs.

[André Gélinas]

There are almost none at the provincial level.