Justice Committee on Oct. 28th, 2025

[Thomas Carrique]

In the time I've had to review it, I agree that it does attempt to address the issue of the principle of restraint.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

All right. Thank you.

Now I want to talk about the laws versus the enforcement. I want to talk to Mr. Dalrymple.

Sir, you talked about how it's not one level of government that bears all the responsibility. We've heard this time and time again. It's the laws versus enforcement. The laws can be there, but if you don't have the resources available with Crowns and prisons and courtrooms, the laws are still going to face challenges when it comes to enforcement. Would you agree with that?

[Adam Dalrymple]

Yes, Mr. Maloney.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

Again, I'll use my own example. In the province of Ontario, I have yet to meet a Crown attorney who tells me he's suffering from an excess of resources. I assume that it's the same case in British Columbia.

[Adam Dalrymple]

Yes, that's correct.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

We've heard evidence, earlier in this study about bail hearings, that in some cases you'll come to court and a Crown attorney will have 25 bail applications but time to get through only about 10. That means the other 15 get either disposed of by way of agreement or postponed. Is that a common occurrence in British Columbia as well?

[Adam Dalrymple]

In my experience in travelling the province, yes, there is what we believe to be triage taking place, where prosecutors are trying to get through court lists, focusing on the more serious matters. Some of the less serious matters are not then given the attention and detail that are required.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Right, or in some cases, that results in people being released on agreement, without actually going through the hearing process, to try to triage the cases they have on their docket. Is that right?

[Adam Dalrymple]

In my experience, we still do a hearing before a justice, but it might be by consent: The Crown will agree to someone's release on limited conditions, obviously, in compliance with the law. However, there may not have been an opportunity to vet what the defence lawyer said the accused's circumstances are, or, for example, if there's a release plan, that release plan may not have been vetted by the prosecutor: They may not have had the time or resources to reach out to see if they're going into a recovery house, the reputation of that recovery house and those sorts of things. Depending on the day and how busy it is, they may not have those opportunities to dig deep on these files. That's why—

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Right, so in your experience, the Crown attorneys are at a bit of a disadvantage because they don't have the luxury of time to do their preparation before these bail hearings, to have the necessary background information when they enter into these agreements. Is that fair?

[Adam Dalrymple]

In most cases, that's our belief. I was just at our Canadian international meeting in Halifax last week, and I understand that this is across the country, particularly in large centres like Toronto, Vancouver and other places like that.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Do you have any concern, in the absence of the provinces' increasing their capacity when it comes to Crowns, courtrooms and detention centres, that this new set of laws will only create a greater burden on the system, and the system might actually suffer worse than it is now?

[Adam Dalrymple]

Yes, that is our concern. Unless you have a commensurate increase in the number of resources to deal with these matters on the front lines, in the courtrooms of this country, we will not be able to handle, for—

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

As one last, very quick, point—and this is something Commissioner Carrique said—there's been no monitoring of the effectiveness of Bill C-48, because that is exclusively in the control of the provinces. They have that data, control the system and are the ones in the position to make that assessment, so how do you think the federal government can encourage the provinces to actually do that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

We'll be able to follow up on that, Commissioner, perhaps with another round, either with Liberals or others.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

I am going to turn to you, Mr. Gélinas and Mr. Wall. Either one of you can answer.

You are aware of the three current conditions for releasing someone. The Crown prosecutor must show that, if the person is not incarcerated, there is a risk that he or she will not appear at subsequent stages of the trial. It must also be proven that releasing the person is not a threat to public safety and does not bring the administration of justice into disrepute.

The proposal is to reverse the burden of proof in certain circumstances. Does that sound good? If so, should other conditions be added to the current three?

[André Gélinas]

There is no doubt that such a proposal is already a major step in the right direction. Reversing the burden of proof is useful, but we also need the means to make sure that if bail is granted, the accused complies with the conditions. Commitments are often used in the judicial process. Even if the accused has committed to something, it does not mean they are going to keep that commitment.

As I mentioned in my presentation, we often realize that the conditions were not met only after a tragedy occurs, unfortunately. We need an effective way to operate such a system, to verify and to ensure that the conditions are really followed.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You are talking to me about better monitoring of compliance with release conditions. I agree with you, but my question was more about the conditions a judge can set to release someone.

However, I am going to follow up on your answer. The courts already impose conditions when they release someone. Are those conditions stringent enough? Also, as you say, is the problem not caused more by the fact that people who are released on bail are not being properly monitored?

[André Gélinas]

Yes. I think you are touching on the important point. When a person promises in writing to keep the peace, to stay away from a specific area and to obey the law, we are theoretically shielded from risk.

However, we have a problem. Obviously, not all offenders pose the same risk. However, once the risk has been assessed, no one is tasked with checking the file of John Doe or Jane Doe to ensure that their release conditions are being met. In Quebec, no unit is responsible for doing this kind of work. Such monitoring would strengthen the credibility of the system. Other criminals would then know that their commitments would not be based solely on their honour, but that they would actually be monitored.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I will take a few seconds to tell you about something I read this morning, although it happened another day. An individual violated his bail conditions 93 times over a 66‑day period. He was considered to have done so to harass his victim, his ex‑spouse. If I were to ask you to summarize your thoughts in about 20 seconds, what would you tell me about that?

[André Gélinas]

The system lacks credibility. Once again, we see a person disregarding bail conditions. If we put ourselves in the shoes of the public, the victim and even the police, we see that it is discouraging for everyone. In fact, earlier, we heard the commissioner talk about officers being demoralized.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Among other things, witnesses told us that people awaiting trial currently make up 72% of the prison population. That means 28% of inmates are serving a sentence. I was surprised to learn that, and it seems absurd to me. Prisons are being built to prevent crime by sending people there to wait for their trial.

What do you think? Is that healthy? Is there a problem with the administration of the justice system? As a police officer, do you find it normal that 72% of the inmate population are inmates awaiting trial?

[Stéphane Wall]

It would be important to break that down. Have the majority of the 72% of the prison population who are inmates awaiting trial committed serious crimes against the person? Is it more property crimes? Are they repeat offenders?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I understand what you are saying in terms of security. However, my question is more about the justice system: if we are required to detain so many individuals before their trial, does the justice system work? Is that right?

There may be some things I do not understand.

[Stéphane Wall]

The justice system will never be able to prevent all recidivism and ensure that everyone released will not reoffend. If the percentage of those detained awaiting trial is high, it means that the crimes they allegedly committed require their detention. You would not want to build—