Justice Committee on Nov. 6th, 2025

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Gill hit the nail on the head, in my opinion. He asked whether we could afford to wait, and your answer was “no.” You started by saying that this is a robust piece of legislation and let's get it done. Every single witness who has come before this committee, Mayor Brown, has said virtually the same thing. However—and I only have two minutes—one of the biggest challenges we face in this entire discussion.... The other thing you said is that this is not a partisan issue. I couldn't agree with you more. It has been turned into a partisan issue, and it's so unfortunate that it's disgraceful.

What advice would you give to people in the House of Commons to tone down the rhetoric? We have a justice system that is strong, though it needs to be improved, and we're doing our part to do it. What advice would you give to those who insist on snipping, clipping and posting on Facebook, for example, or using this negative rhetoric to criticize a bill that you, Deputy Chief Johnson and so many others are here urging us to pass?

[Patrick Brown]

I'll share the same advice I shared with the Minister of Justice in June when I was up here with Chief Duraiappah. I said that we all have to own our areas of responsibility, and it doesn't help when we're all finger-pointing each other, whether it's the municipal government, the provincial government or the federal government. Frankly, I think we look a little immature when we're in that finger-pointing stage.

We just need to fix this. Residents don't care what level of government does it. They just want to see a system they feel and see is broken be addressed. I know that Ottawa has a partisan and confrontational dynamic, and that's our parliamentary system, but I believe this legislation on bail reform was needed 10 years ago, and the fact that it's happening now is good news.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the two witnesses for being here.

You attended the previous debate. I assure you that, as far as I’m concerned, the debate on procedure had nothing to do with the importance of your two statements. I am very happy to hear what you have to say on this important topic.

Mr. Johnson, do you have statistics on the percentage of inmates who are in pre-trial custody compared to those who are in custody following a sentence?

[Robert Johnson]

Unfortunately, I don't have those here, but I can certainly get them. I want to make sure the information is accurate. I don't have them with me today.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Do you know if this information is available?

[Robert Johnson]

Yes, it is.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Can you send us those data after the meeting?

[Robert Johnson]

Yes, I will.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you.

Do you know the percentage of crimes committed by individuals who are on bail and the absolute number of these crimes?

[Robert Johnson]

Yes, I think Mayor Brown quoted the figure of about 66%. I think in the city of Toronto, it is a little bit higher than that, upwards of about 70%.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I’m talking about crimes committed by people who are on bail.

Excuse me, Mr. Johnson, but I want to make sure we understand each other.

What is the number or percentage of crimes committed by individuals who are on bail, that is, who have been released while awaiting their trial, in your area?

What percentage of the total number of crimes committed in your area does this number represent?

[Robert Johnson]

Thank you for that. It was my misunderstanding of the question originally.

I don't have the exact figure here. We're talking about violent offences or all crime in total, which I know we have. I do not have those with me today.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you.

Do you know if there are any statistics on the increase in crimes committed by repeat offenders, that is, people who have already been convicted and who commit other crimes?

Are there any figures, statistics on that? Has it increased over the last ten or twenty years, or not?

[Robert Johnson]

Again, I don't have them with me. We do capture that, and there has been a dramatic increase, I know that for certain. I do not have the exact figure with me today, but can get that to you.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You’re going to find me annoying because I’m going to ask you for more numbers. I’m trying to be efficient.

My question is about the rehabilitation rate for criminals. I would divide people who are convicted of a crime into two categories: those who are sent to prison and those who receive a suspended sentence.

Are we able to establish the rehabilitation rate concerning these people?

[Robert Johnson]

I think we'd have to work with Corrections Canada on that, but certainly, from a police perspective, offenders who reoffend, we do capture that statistic. Again, if we're talking about what category of crime, they are all crimes right across all indicators or violent crimes. Again, I apologize; I do not have those with me here today. For what we capture, I can certainly provide that.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Johnson.

Mr. Brown, I would like to ask you the same questions, but I imagine you don’t have any more statistics or figures on hand than Mr. Johnson.

Do you have any?

[Patrick Brown]

I regularly ask our provincial Crown attorney for updates on the numbers. The 66% figure I was referring to was for offences with a firearm. Unfortunately, the majority of offences, serious offences, are given bail today.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You say that this percentage of 66% concerns crimes committed with firearms.

Sixty-six per cent of what?

[Patrick Brown]

Those were for offences that involved a firearm last year in Peel region.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

So, 66% of crimes committed last year were committed with firearms.

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown]

Thank you.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Witnesses told us that more than 60% of inmates in prisons, even more than 70% of them, are awaiting their trial.

Mr. Johnson, are you able to confirm or deny this figure?

[Robert Johnson]

I'm sorry; what was your figure?