Justice Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2026

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

We'll go to Mr. Baber for three minutes and then to Ms. Dhillon for three minutes.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

My time is short, so we'll try to go quickly.

Mr. Atlas, welcome. I understand you are legal counsel for the Toronto Transit Commission.

[Michael Atlas]

That is correct.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I got into provincial politics about a decade ago because I'm very passionate about the TTC. It's been my lifetime work to try to connect the Sheppard West subway station and the Sheppard Yonge subway station, which crosses through my riding of York Centre and the great riding of Willowdale. I certainly hope that you can try to assist me with that.

[Michael Atlas]

I am also a member of the same riding.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I'm honoured to represent you.

Mr. Atlas, a CBC article from November 26, 2025, says that in the last decade, physical assaults are up 160% on the TTC, and all violent crime is up 127%. That's notably since 2015. Does that sound right?

[Michael Atlas]

I don't know the numbers, but yes, it's definitely increased.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I can think of something that happened in 2015, and that is the election of this present Liberal government. Is there another reason? Why do you believe we have seen such an uptick of violence on the TTC?

[Michael Atlas]

I don't know if I have an answer for that. When you look at how we're trying to solve the problem, you're looking at it through multiple approaches: mental health crises, substance abuse and homelessness. From a TTC standpoint, we're looking at all of those disciplines, and I don't know if there's one reason over another for why you're seeing it.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I used to take the subway to work every day when I worked downtown and when I worked at Queen's Park. Unfortunately, because of all the incidents, the subway is simply no longer reliable in the city of Toronto.

I looked at the mental health component. According to the Toronto Sun, one out of every four incidents where a person is involved...is due to a mental health issue. To your knowledge, is that addressed in Bill C-14?

[Michael Atlas]

I'm not aware of that being addressed.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

It's not addressed.

I want to ask you about special constables. How is that working out? Do you believe they need greater law enforcement ability or that they need to be armed, perhaps?

[Michael Atlas]

No, I personally don't think they need to be armed. I think special constables do a great job of providing a safe and secure transit system, so I don't necessarily think they need to carry weapons.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

It's very sad to me that in the city of Toronto, parents no longer feel that it's safe for their children to take the TTC on their own. I think the TTC is such a landmark in our city, and it's very sad that we're here today.

I note that, primarily, the mental health component of this has gone up after the pandemic response. Is that correct?

[Michael Atlas]

I think that's the perception, yes.

I just want to reiterate that the TTC remains a safe system, so you can encourage your friends' kids to continue to take the TTC.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Mr. Baber.

Ms. Dhillon, we'll go over to you for three minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will start with Mr. Sauvé.

Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Sauvé.

You were being questioned about your experience as a police officer, and you said something interesting. You said that in your experience, you did not see mandatory minimum sentences as being a deterrent. Can you please expand on that?

[Brian Sauvé]

I'm not against mandatory minimum sentencing, and I think most police officers are not against it.

My experience has been that it's very difficult at trial or with the Crown to proceed and make the argument for mandatory minimum sentencing or for a judge to award a mandatory minimum sentence. That's been my experience. We've tried on a number of occasions and haven't been successful. It's an extremely uphill battle.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

You spoke about data gathering and sharing. Can you talk to us about what you would see as more helpful to prevent restrictive territorial jurisdictions? You've mentioned a few times that it's very important that there's a collaborative effort across Canada. Perhaps you can talk to us about that.

[Brian Sauvé]

We can talk about just one jurisdiction. For example, all of my experience is in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia. The B.C. court system operates on one software platform, which is fine.

Say we arrest someone for break and enter and they are released on bail because it's their first offence, and over the next several weeks before their court appearance, they violate that bail or breach their conditions for whatever reason. By the time they deal with the substantive offence of break and enter, which might lead to a guilty plea in exchange for a stay of proceedings on the numerous breaches of bail violations.... All a police officer is going to see the next offence or the next time the person commits a crime is the conviction for the break and enter. They won't see that they were charged and had stays of proceedings on the numerous bail violations.

It gets even more compounded if you change jurisdictions or change provinces. A Crown counsel in Lethbridge, Alberta, may appreciate knowing that someone who's been arrested for break and enter has a conviction for break and enter but also has 17 stayed charges for bail violations in a different jurisdiction or a different province. That might change their argument on bail, and it might change a JJP's decision-making process on granting bail.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

As we've seen, the reverse onus is going to be expanded when it comes to intimate partner violence and, for example, violent auto theft. You would like to see, I'm sure, this bill quickly passed for these reasons.

[Brian Sauvé]

I would. Let's get step two over with and move on to step three and get all jurisdictions working together.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.

We'll have to stop there.

I want to say thank you to all three of the witnesses not only for being here today but also for their service. We're all incredibly grateful.

I will take issue with only one thing you said, Mr. Sauvé. You said, “I'm just a cop.” You're not “just a cop”, sir. You're a police officer. We all owe you a debt of gratitude, as we do all of your colleagues.

We'll suspend for a moment while we get the next panel ready.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I'd like to call the meeting back to order, please.

I want to welcome our witnesses for the second hour.

On Zoom, we have Peter Copeland, deputy director of domestic policy, Macdonald-Laurier Institute; and Tiago Múrias, criminal lawyer, Ameur and Múrias Inc. With us in person is Dr. Kelly Sundberg, professor at Mount Royal University.

I want to welcome you here today, or welcome you back, as the case may be, and just say that we're very grateful for your taking the time to join us today.

Each of you will have up to five minutes for opening remarks.

Dr. Sundberg, since you're in the room and I'm looking at you, I'll turn the floor over to you.