Evidence of meeting #17 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-14.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Dyas  Mayor, City of Kelowna
Veresuk  Executive Director, Regina Downtown Business Improvement District
Campbell  President, Toronto Police Association
Poirier  Vice-President, Federal Government Relations, Retail Council of Canada
MacKinnon  Chairperson, International Downtown Association Canada
Taylor  Senior General Counsel and Director General, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Grbac  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Burt  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Reynolds  Acting Senior Counsel, Youth Criminal Justice Division, Department of Justice

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Ms. Lattanzio.

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

My question is to the officials with regard to the firearms.

Does this amendment include all firearms, and if not, does it lead to any interpretation?

12:20 a.m.

Senior General Counsel and Director General, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Matthew Taylor

I might just turn to Ms. Reynolds.

Certainly, there are firearms-related offences that are missing, but I just want to.... Is violent offence included? Is it a closed list, I guess, is the....

12:20 a.m.

Acting Senior Counsel, Youth Criminal Justice Division, Department of Justice

Samantha Reynolds

“Violent offence” currently is tied to threats, attempts or causation of bodily harm, or endangering the life or safety by creating a substantial likelihood of causing bodily harm. That definition was enacted in the Youth Criminal Justice Act in 2012 by way of Bill C-10, the Safe Streets and Communities Act.

What the motion is proposing is adding a new paragraph to the “violent offence” definition that would list several firearms offences, although I take the point that it's not all firearms offences, and so there may be some that are perceived by the courts as missing. There may be some that are maybe more specific to possession and maybe not so much tied to bodily harm, which is what the definition is really focused on right now.

In terms of a conceptual understanding of the definition of “violent offence”, it does expand it to listing certain offences and not others, which could be something the courts are considering—why these offences and not others?—if this motion is passed.

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Mr. Chair, with that, I'd like to move a subamendment.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Okay.

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

It's going to read as follows: “That Bill C-14, in clause 59 be amended by adding, after line 5 on page 27 the following: Paragraph 2, the definition of “violent offence” in subsection 2(1) of the act is amended by striking out “or” at the end of the paragraph (b), and by adding “or” at the of paragraph (c), and by adding the following after paragraph (c), (d) an offence committed by a young person involving the use or trafficking of a firearm.”

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Mr. Brock.

12:20 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON

Can we get a copy?

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

It's being distributed.

We'll suspend.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I call the meeting to order.

Everybody now has the wording of Ms. Lattanzio's amendment.

Mr. Lawton, go ahead.

12:30 a.m.

Conservative

Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON

Thank you.

I have a question for the officials.

I realize you've only had the subamendment for a few moments, but as you understand it, would that subamendment capture section 86 of the Criminal Code in subsection 86(1) and/or subsection 86(2)?

12:30 a.m.

Acting Senior Counsel, Youth Criminal Justice Division, Department of Justice

Samantha Reynolds

I'm just double-checking what subsections 86(1) and 86(2) are.

12:30 a.m.

Conservative

Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON

Subsection 86(1) is careless use of firearm, and subsection 86(2) is contravention of storage regulations.

12:30 a.m.

Acting Senior Counsel, Youth Criminal Justice Division, Department of Justice

Samantha Reynolds

The proposed change would address an offence committed by a young person involving the use of a firearm, and that could be interpreted, I believe, broadly enough to cover that kind of circumstance.

12:30 a.m.

Conservative

Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON

If subamended, violating storage regulations on lawfully owned firearms—which is serious and we have recourse available—would be classed as a violent offence then, or could be, you're interpreting.

12:30 a.m.

Acting Senior Counsel, Youth Criminal Justice Division, Department of Justice

Samantha Reynolds

I don't know if it helps to give a bit of an interpretation of how use of a firearm has been characterized in the case law.

12:30 a.m.

Conservative

Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON

In your first answer you said that use could do it.

12:30 a.m.

Acting Senior Counsel, Youth Criminal Justice Division, Department of Justice

Samantha Reynolds

I think what this change would allow is for courts to look at the facts and circumstances surrounding the commission of an offence and decide whether contextually that would fit the definition of violent offence depending on the circumstances.

12:30 a.m.

Conservative

Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON

The reason I asked the question I did before the subamendment was tabled was just to understand what offences Mr. Fortin's amendment was applying to. I just have to say given what you said, I'm more convinced that having these specifically enumerated offences in the original version is vastly more preferable. Again, it is a serious issue.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Mr. Housefather.

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

When you talk about storage of a firearm, I have difficulty understanding how storage of a firearm could be either the use of or the trafficking of a firearm.

Could you clarify if you really meant that you believe that an offence related to storing a firearm inappropriately involves either the use or the trafficking of a firearm?

12:30 a.m.

Senior General Counsel and Director General, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Matthew Taylor

What I took from Ms. Reynolds' answer was that it's going to be contextual.

To take Mr. Lawton's example of subsection 86(2), contravention of storage regulations, you would have to look at the specific context around that. Contravention of storage regulations may also be accompanied with use conduct, so—

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Let's say, for example, instead of having my firearm locked in the appropriate box, I have it in the box, but I haven't locked it. I have thus violated the storage requirement of locking the box, but I have not used the firearm, and I have not trafficked the firearm.

Would you be arguing then that somehow use or trafficking would apply?

12:30 a.m.

Senior General Counsel and Director General, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Matthew Taylor

No.

Ms. Reynolds, jump in if you'd like.

No, that's not—