Justice Committee on Feb. 4th, 2026

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

As well, different categories have been added with reverse onus. There's violent auto theft. With these kinds of categories, how much more efficient—I won't say easier—will it make police work?

[Clayton Campbell]

I think adding reverse onus provisions is important. We did see that with Bill C‑48, I believe. The challenge is that I don't know if they were applied. Hopefully, some of the clarifying language in Bill C‑14 will help justices and judges apply the reverse onus properly.

Yes, we're supportive of the increase with regard to reverse onus crimes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Perfect. Thank you so much.

Ms. Veresuk, you mentioned during your testimony that in bail reform, reverse onus is also important and something that you'd like to see. Every first minister has now called on Parliament to quickly take action. From a downtown business perspective, what does it mean to see Parliament put this bill through?

[Judith Veresuk]

We're thrilled. This is something that we have been directly impacted by, even more so since the pandemic, when we started to see criminality rise in all our downtowns across Canada. It really is taking a toll, not just financially but also mentally on a lot of our retailers and storefronts.

I have testimony from my colleague who operates a restaurant in the lobby of my building. She says she was physically assaulted last winter, and is verbally harassed almost every day at work. Staff feel unsafe when they're working, especially if there's a disturbance in the lobby. They see drug usage at their back door, which makes their staff feel unsafe when they're heading out to their cars at the end of the day. This is daily. This is a significant restaurant in our downtown that is on the verge of closing. They're tenuous now. They can't keep staff, because the staff are worried about being assaulted. They're also not making any money, because patrons are scared to come down.

This is just reflective of a lot of what we're seeing in small businesses across Canada. This is just a drop in the bucket.

So yes, we are extremely supportive of this bill. Any tools we can give to our communities to help enforce this and reduce crime in our communities will benefit our businesses and our downtowns.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Dyas, you mentioned that people are not showing up to their court appearances and the importance of this bill when it comes to that. Also, can you talk to us about cities asking for clearer federal direction on bail for repeat and violent offences? How can Parliament move forward with Bill C-14 and give municipalities the confidence to know that action is being taken?

[Tom Dyas]

As the other panellists have said here, the advancement of Bill C-14 itself shows that Parliament is taking action. It may not have everything that everyone wants within it at this particular point in time, but that's part of the process of then continuing communication and working on it.

To have individuals within our community like the one I mentioned who had over 30 appearances but was not showing up for court, with no repercussions, with no regard to any of that actually taking place, other than going back out into our community and causing more disturbances.... Residents within these communities feel threatened. They're looking at the justice system itself and saying that there is nothing within the justice system: Where does it come from? Who is going to truly help us?

We don't want to ever see it get to a point of any vigilantism or anything along those lines, but regrettably, the reality of it is that they feel at wit's end. They don't know how to move forward.

Bill C-14 and the steps you're discussing give people hope that there's change on the horizon. It may not be exactly what everybody wants, but it gives people hope that, yes, people are listening. There are so many frontline workers and so many families who own businesses and everything else who are affected.

If I may add—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you. I'm sorry. We're tight on time.

[Tom Dyas]

Thank you, Chair. My apologies.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

Mr. Fortin, it's over to you for two and a half minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Campbell, Bill C‑14 talks about adding the use or attempted use of random and unprovoked violence to the factors for the court to consider when granting bail. I would like to hear your comments on this.

Is this a significant factor for the police officers? If so, could you explain a bit how this could affect the danger posed by the individual?

[Clayton Campbell]

We were very glad to see that in this bill. In Toronto, we've seen some really horrific attacks, especially in the downtown core, completely unprovoked, with the accused and the victim not knowing each other. There has been some really disgusting violence. Yes, we're very happy to see this included in Bill C-14.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

What's the rough percentage of cases of random violence compared to the percentage of cases of violence committed for objective reasons?

[Clayton Campbell]

I wouldn't have that data, but I can say that they really have an impact on public safety and on the fear of crime, especially downtown. I mentioned it before: an attack with a hammer downtown and assaulting and serious injuries. What happens is that regular citizens think that they don't want to go down there.

On our TTC, as an example, where you're seeing some attacks that are unprovoked, that causes fear of crime, so the percentage isn't as relevant.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I apologize if I'm rushing you, but my time is running out. I understand what you're saying. However, how common is this? You keep talking about a hammer attack. I understand that it's traumatic, but is it a daily, weekly or monthly occurrence? Do you see this often?

[Clayton Campbell]

Yes, definitely in our transit system. If you take the TTC and you go down there, there are a lot of individuals.... A lot of it is mental health and addiction. There has been some investment by the municipality into the TTC, but yes, I think it's a common occurrence to see some unprovoked violence from unknown offenders.

The numbers say one thing, but we still see the fear of crime as being the number one priority in the city of Toronto. Really, those unprovoked and unknown attacks create a lot of fear in the community.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Campbell.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

Mr. Lawton, it's over to you for five minutes.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here.

I'd like to start with you, Ms. Veresuk.

You are not from my riding or my province, but I know that you've spoken to a lot of the concerns that have been raised. I was speaking about this issue last year with Paul Jenkins of the St. Thomas Chamber of Commerce. One of the things he pointed out some years back was how his chamber was one of those that were really pushing other chambers in Ontario and Canada to start realizing that crime and justice issues are business issues and economic issues.

I'm wondering if you can speak to what that cost is. I've heard from constituent businesses of mine about the issues they have with insurance. Just in driving down the street, I've seen that more businesses have vacated cores entirely. Especially with small and medium-sized businesses in mind, what is that cost?

[Judith Veresuk]

I have a cost for our community that we've been able to track as a whole.

I will give you some anecdotal information here. We have one local landlord who had to spend over $3 million converting a parkade to seal it. They were running into significant property damage and vehicle break-ins because people could get into that garage. Now they've had to put up gates and secure doors for $3 million.

A perpetrator was caught shoplifting and activating fire alarms in our downtown mall. One evening, she stole a taxi and drove it into the storefront of a local business, and then she drove through the mall. That was $2 million worth of damage.

It becomes astronomical when you add up what people are reporting plus what people aren't reporting to you. Those are the folks who have raised it with us, but there are so many others whose windows have been broken but have stopped going to insurance because the insurance is going up.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

It is happening in communities of all sizes. I mentioned St. Thomas. Part of London is in my riding. I've spoken about this with Kristen Duever at the London Chamber of Commerce. It's in big cities and small communities. It's everywhere.

Mr. Campbell, I wanted to get you to speak to this, if you will. I'm sure you've heard, probably with some frustration, when property crime has been diminished as non-violent crime, often it doesn't stay that way.

I was hoping you could speak to how property crime fits into the broader fabric of the types of offences we're talking about, especially with the bail system.

[Clayton Campbell]

Property crimes are destructive. You were just mentioning damage to homes and businesses. When you create that disorder, I think it feeds into the fear of crime, as you see things that are destroyed or see that people won't go into certain businesses or parks. Yes, I think it has a real impact on the fear of crime.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Mayor Dyas, I don't know if you meant it as an amendment formally, but you proposed a change to the bill. I was hoping you could be a bit more specific about what you would like to see added and where.

[Tom Dyas]

It is with regards to property and repeat offences including the phrase “property offences”.

If I may touch upon your previous question, as a community, we did a study over three years, and our cost as a community was about $20 million to deal with all of the effects related to this. That expense is translated through to all of the businesses as they continue to incur expense.

When we do our budgets as municipalities, nowhere in our line items do they have anything to do with that. It's an additional cost that is not allowing us to spend that capital on the infrastructure that municipalities need.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Thank you.

I yield to Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Thank you, colleague.

Chair, I filed a motion last week. At this time, I'd like to move that motion.

The motion reads:

That, at the conclusion of clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C‑14, the committee immediately proceed to the consideration of Bill C‑16.

This is consistent with messaging not only from the Prime Minister last week but also from our Minister of Justice, Sean Fraser.