Evidence of meeting #17 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-14.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Dyas  Mayor, City of Kelowna
Veresuk  Executive Director, Regina Downtown Business Improvement District
Campbell  President, Toronto Police Association
Poirier  Vice-President, Federal Government Relations, Retail Council of Canada
MacKinnon  Chairperson, International Downtown Association Canada
Taylor  Senior General Counsel and Director General, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Grbac  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Burt  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Reynolds  Acting Senior Counsel, Youth Criminal Justice Division, Department of Justice

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON

I'd like to speak to the amendment.

Conservatives on this committee came in the spirit of collaboration to address the issues that Bill C-14 deals with and the issues that Bill C-16 deals with. We have been clear, as have Canadians, that these are the priorities they expect of this committee and of the House of Commons when it comes to criminal justice.

It has also been clear how much division and disagreement there is on Bill C-9, which was why it was frustrating in the fall when our numerous attempts to prioritize bail reform were blocked and thwarted by Liberal members of Parliament. I had hoped that in the new year, we would be able to have this reorientation, and I was encouraged by our ability to dedicate—it should have been more, as Monsieur Fortin said—three meetings to deal with Bill C-14. I will say, our Conservative team is prepared to sit here all night long until Bill C-14 is finished. We believe in this issue.

On the amendment that is being proposed by Ms. Lattanzio, not only does it downgrade Bill C-16, the government's own bill, as being less significant, despite the fact that there is more consensus around this, it also pushes a fundamentally undemocratic demand that not only Bill C-9 be dealt with on Monday, but that all debate must end by one o'clock, and that any division, disagreement, anything we want to address to bring in from stakeholders, from constituents, if we can't get that put on the record in two hours, Canadians do not have a right to have their voices heard.

This is not just undemocratic, but it is disgraceful on a bill about which the justice minister himself said in December, in response to some of the issues that were raised about Bill C-9, he was going to spend the winter consulting with faith leaders. There has been no report given to this committee or anyone else. There has been no formal update about what has come of those consultations. I've heard from some people who have reached out to the minister hoping their voices would be heard as part of it, who have not gotten a response. I would note that in our study of Bill C-9, we never as a committee had the opportunity to even study the removal of the religious defence.

To say that not only should we not be able to study that, but also we shouldn't even be allowed to debate it because we're going to invoke this arbitrary cut-off point where if we can't get to something by one o'clock, that's it, debate is over and we have to vote on all amendments, that is something on which no member of Parliament can look their constituents in the eye and tell them that they took the deliberative process of this committee seriously.

We had hoped that Mr. Brock's motion to prioritize Bill C-16 and stress that spirit of collaboration would be welcomed. There is a priority of justice legislation. Evidently, the Liberals do not want to get to sentencing and intimate partner violence; they do not want to get to child protection as much as they want to get to censoring religious texts.

It is clear from Ms. Lattanzio's amendment where the Liberal priorities are, and that's something they'll have to own up to to Canadians. Given that and given our seriousness about dealing with criminal justice issues that Canadians expect us to deal with, I move that the committee proceed to the consideration of witness testimony on Bill C-14, the bail and sentencing reform act, with the second panel of witnesses.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

What becomes of Ms. Lattanzio's amendment?

6 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON

A motion to proceed to an item on the agenda is a dilatory motion.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Chair, I have a question.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

There's no debate because it's a dilatory motion, but if it's a point of clarification to understand the motion....

6 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I understand, Mr. Chair, but—

6 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON

I have a point of order.

Nowhere in the House of Commons rules on procedure does a “point of clarification” exist.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Well, Mr. Lawton, that may be true, but in order for people to vote, I would hope that you would afford them the opportunity to understand what it is you're proposing so that they can vote on it. That's all.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON

I'm pretty sure Mr. Housefather understands.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Well, if we let him make his point, we'll find out, won't we?

6 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Brock chose to bring forward his motion to go away from Bill C-14 and stop talking about it before the second panel. Why did the Conservatives choose to do it then if they want to go to the second panel? They mysteriously interfered with the testimony. I'm confused. I would just like clarification.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you, Mr. Housefather.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Mr. Chair—

Voices

[Inaudible—Editor]

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Hold on, please. I'm going to suspend for one second because there are too many people talking at one time. The clerk is trying to speak to me as well.

I'm going to suspend for a moment.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I call the meeting back to order.

I've reviewed Mr. Lawton's dilatory motion. It is not receivable because it is procedurally incorrect. Therefore, we'll continue.

Is there any further discussion?

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON

I have a point of order.

Why? Can you offer the citation of the standing order that supports that?

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

You can't bring a dilatory motion to move to do what we're already doing, which is having witnesses. You can move to move on to some other item or some other issue, but you cannot do this. It's in the rules.

Is there any further discussion on Ms. Lattanzio's amendment?

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON

If I understand correctly, Mr. Chair....

Do I have the floor?

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Are you making a point of order, Mr. Brock?

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON

Yes.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Okay, well, make that clear.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON

Are we going to continue to show disrespect to the witnesses on the second panel?

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

That is not a point of order, Mr. Brock.

I made it very clear about 45 minutes ago that I would like to move on and get to the witnesses because they went to a lot of trouble to be here today. If people want to sit here and continue making accusations against one another, we're not going to get to a productive discussion.

The issue on the floor right now is Ms. Lattanzio's amendment.

Let's have one person speaking at a time, please—and I'm speaking to both sides of the table when I say that.

Ms. Lattanzio's amendment is what is before us right now. If there is any further discussion on that, raise your hand. Otherwise, we are going to proceed to a vote.

Mr. Baber.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

Thank you.

I believe the leaders of the respective parties have met today to look for a way for the opposition and the government to work together. We have had a sensible proposal made by MP Larry Brock to find a way forward and not just complete Bill C-14 today as intended.

I'm going to put it on the record that Conservatives are not going to leave today until we finish bail and also proceed with the second piece of legislation that's now before the committee, that deals with crime, Bill C-16.

As I've said, Bill C-16 is not perfect. We're very concerned about the safety valve. We're concerned about the fact that the bill actually undermines mandatory minimum sentences, as opposed to figuring out a way to strengthen them. Instead of figuring out a way forward to work co-operatively on priorities that Canadians expect us to work on, the government is ramming through a motion to essentially end debate—to create a time allocation on Bill C-9, which is not before the committee right now.

My friend Mr. Housefather has heard from Mark Sandler, who was invited here both by the Liberals and by the Conservatives. Mr. Sandler was sitting right there, and he said that there is nothing that Bill C-9 does, that there is nothing that Bill C-9 criminalizes, that is not already criminal under the Criminal Code.

Instead, what the Liberals have done is U-turned two or three times. On the religious defence, I suspect there may be some disagreement even within the Liberal caucus on Bill C-9. We recall that initially the PMO denied any knowledge of the Bloc amendment.

Where we find ourselves, instead of voting, discussing, debating and then voting clause by clause—