Evidence of meeting #24 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-16.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank the three witnesses for being here.
My first question is for Ms. Dunn.
You spoke a lot about the importance of education, and you spoke about police officers, lawyers, and so on.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on what kind of training could be provided early on to women, men and children in today's society, to see how we can—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Excuse me for interrupting, Mr. Fortin.
It's getting really loud in here. I'm having trouble hearing Mr. Fortin. I can't hear the questions.
Thank you.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Back to my question, Ms. Dunn.
Regarding education, of course, a two-year transition period has been set aside for police officers and lawyers before these provisions take effect, precisely to allow people time to receive training.
I would like to hear your thoughts on the type of education that could be provided to children, women and men in our schools or elsewhere.
How can we be proactive in preventing controlling and coercive behaviours, violent behaviours?
Do you think this is possible, Ms. Dunn? If so, what type of training do you suggest?
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
We suggest mandatory, ongoing and accountable training very specifically on coercive control, on trauma- and violence-informed practice, and on systemic bias for police, Crown attorneys and judges. It can't be optional. It has to be mandatory. It has to include accountability measures to ensure that it's actually being applied in practice. That's at a high level for police, Crown attorneys and judges, but it can be as young as elementary school. It can be as simple as healthy relationships. That can be taught very easily and put into the curriculum. Again, I know that this is federal and it would be provincial.
An exact example of a program we do here from the London Abused Women's Centre is Coaching Boys Into Men. Our staff go out and train coaches for high school teams on how to have healthy relationships and how to be good men. It's as simple as that. It can start very young.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Do you feel that this type of program works? How can it be improved? We're seeing an increase in crimes related to controlling and coercive behaviour and in violent crimes between spouses. It's on the rise, not on the decline. I have the impression—perhaps wrongly—that we're not doing enough proactively, that we're not doing enough in terms of prevention.
We can certainly make changes to the Criminal Code and establish prison sentences. We can be strict with offenders, but is there anything we can do as a society to prevent individuals from developing behaviours like these?
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
I think you're absolutely right. Prevention really and truly means identifying and responding to risk before violence escalates. For example, I mentioned off the top our high-risk action table for femicide prevention. You're bringing multiple systems together to share information and intervene early before something happens. It also means investing in areas like housing and income and services that allow women to leave safely. It includes education, school boards and all of that.
I want to suggest that I don't think prevention and education are funded properly. That's one of the issues. I mean, in our organization here, we do have provincial core funding for our core services, but for anything else we want to do as it would relate to prevention and education, for example, we have to apply for money to do that. It's really important that it's funded.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Ms. Dunn.
I will now turn to Ms. St. Germain.
You mentioned a problem: the recruitment of children to commit criminal acts. Bill C‑16 proposes one approach, and I had other ideas. Many of us probably have different ideas on this.
From your perspective, how do you view this?
An adult who approaches a child to get them to commit a crime—which is utterly absurd, in my view—is even more serious than committing the crime itself. In my opinion, the individual could have been sentenced to serve twice the sentence they would have received had they committed the crime themselves.
I'd like to hear your opinion on this issue, that is, on the recruitment of children to commit criminal acts. What do you propose in this regard?
General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
It's definitely a serious issue. The length of the sentence is something to talk about.
When it comes to sentencing, as we know, it's very individualized in the way that judges approach these things. They use a lot of different sentencing principles, etc. I'm not sure whether having in the code that it's double the sentence would actually have the desired effect, because I think it would end up getting cut down in some way.
More important is recognizing the seriousness of this type of activity by having an actual criminal offence that speaks to it. We definitely will see things like this happening in the context of, let's say, human trafficking or exploitation through prostitution offences. These are all very important things to tackle.
Regarding the previous question that you asked, one thing I would add to what was said is the exposure to pornography that we have in our society to young people. That may be something we want to tackle.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you, Mr. Fortin. I gave you a little extra time because of the interruption earlier too.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Szabo, you talked about the lack of data.
In your opinion, what data is missing and how can we get it?
Advocacy Lead, Daughter Project Canada
We find, when we are developing resources specifically, that we're missing Canadian data. There are a lot of studies we can get out of different states, which we think perhaps have somewhat of a reflection here in Canada.
Specifically, we're looking at trends and gaps in prevention. As you heard from my colleagues here, prevention is key. We would be able to identify the gaps if we had data on trends and prosecution outcomes specifically.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you, Ms. Szabo and Mr. Fortin.
Mr. Gill, we'll go over to you for five minutes.
Conservative
Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON
My thanks to all witnesses.
My question is for Ms. Dunn.
In your opening statement, you talked about the femicide provision in this bill. I'm going to ask a few questions about this subject.
Is making intimate partner violence a first-degree murder charge enough, in your opinion?
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
I think it's a good step. I definitely do not think it's enough.
Conservative
Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON
As you said, this is a good first step. What are the next steps that need to be taken, in your opinion?
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
I'm going to end up repeating myself a little, but I think it's really important to have a sustained investment in prevention to address the root cause of male violence against women and the systemic barriers that women face. Without that, nothing will happen. Women will continue to lose their lives.
Conservative
Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON
I'm asking about the next steps. This Liberal government introduced the bill and took the first step. They always take a first step. However, they do not address the root cause, and they do not take any further steps needed to improve the legislation and provide support to the victims.
What is your answer to that?
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
It's important that we look at this from multiple directions. The legislation is one piece, but we also have to look at proper funding for organizations like ours. Not all women are going to choose to or want to report to police. They are not going to want to go through the criminal justice system. Whatever their journey to justice looks like, they're going to want to come to an organization like ours, and so it's really important that organizations like ours are properly funded.
I'm going to go back to prevention and education as well. Prevention and education must be funded by all levels of government so that generations can continue to learn about what is wrong and what is right. That's the only way we're going to be able to make proper change.
Conservative
Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON
You talked about the training and programs that are needed. Do you know if the government is taking these critical next steps?
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
Just to clarify, are you asking if I know if the government is taking those steps?
Conservative
Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON
Yes. Are they taking the steps you have suggested in terms of programs or funding?
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
I can speak about our organization specifically. We receive core funding from the provincial government, but we also receive time-limited grants and funding from the federal government for these exact types of initiatives. I think there have been opportunities for this, but there need to be more. We need to have more access to core funding so that we don't have to use our resources, for example, to apply for funding and then to turn around and report on the funding. We need longer opportunities for funding.
Conservative
Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON
How will victims be affected without these programs and training, in your opinion?