Evidence of meeting #26 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was harm.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
How do measures like evidence preservation and strengthened tools for online harm support the work being done by an organization like yours?
Co-Chair of the Board, Child and Youth Advocacy Centres of Canada
I think that question might be better directed to Dr. Parker, who has some of the background on forensic interviewing.
Co-Director, Kindex Research and Knowledge Centre
Thank you, Leah.
I will answer a bit about child forensic interviewing, but I believe you're asking beyond that scope as well with the online harms.
Children give their most accurate evidence when they're interviewed once, early, by trained professionals, yet our system still relies on repeated in-court testimony, which retraumatizes children and degrades their reliability. Presumptive admissibility of high-quality forensic interviews would reduce that harm, improve evidence quality and strengthen—not weaken—fair trials under Bill C-16.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Okay. Are there any additional supports or resources needed to ensure these legislative changes are effective in practice?
Co-Director, Kindex Research and Knowledge Centre
If presumptive CFIs were included, which is not currently in the bill, but if they were, we would need to set up national standards. There are evidence-informed protocols that other countries have adopted, such as the NICHD, which is the acronym they use, and the training would need to be standardized across police forces for how they're implemented.
In terms of further training, there would also need to be judicial training on the understanding of how those child memories play into the child forensic interviews, and trauma-informed adjudication beyond the kind of sexual assault myths, which currently exist in the training that currently exists.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Thank you very much.
My next question is for Ms. Hajek.
Elder abuse is often non-physical. Does the current legal framework adequately capture coercive and controlling behaviour?
Chief Executive Officer, Elder Abuse Prevention Ontario
Not necessarily...no. What we're trying to do by providing some insights around this is to make sure that coercive control extends to all persons who are relevant in the older person's life in providing care, formal or informal.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Would Bill C-16 improve protections for seniors, or do significant gaps still remain?
Chief Executive Officer, Elder Abuse Prevention Ontario
Again, we want to ensure the language includes older adults and those people they have relationships with who either are providing basic necessities of life or are within their social support networks. As it is right now, it's not sufficient in terms of capturing that target audience.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
In your experience, what are the biggest barriers preventing seniors from reporting abuse?
Chief Executive Officer, Elder Abuse Prevention Ontario
The list is long, but first and foremost, it is the stigma of suddenly being judged that they have allowed this to happen to themselves, or the shame of disclosing to other individuals.
More importantly, if the older person is living in the same home as the abuser, there is always that threat and the fear of repercussions from actually reporting it. Also, for the most part, most adults do not want to incarcerate their family members. They just want the abuse to stop.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
I will now go to Dr. Parker again.
Your research highlights early warning signs. At what point should intervention occur to prevent an escalation?
Co-Director, Kindex Research and Knowledge Centre
Do you mean escalation of abuse?
Co-Director, Kindex Research and Knowledge Centre
I believe that by.... I'm not going to speak about the mandatory reporting as much, because my colleague Lindsay did.
There is training that could be done for allied professionals on the recognition and reporting of abuse, because there are very clear signs of what that looks like. We know that abuse that is repetitive and coercive has incredible harms. That does also connect to—although it's not what you're asking about—the need for graduated charges.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair (Rhéal Éloi Fortin) Bloc Rhéal Fortin
Thank you, Ms. Parker and Mr. Chang.
I will now turn the floor over to our distinguished colleague Mr. Fortin, which is me. I will let the clerk keep track of my speaking time, which is six minutes.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Ms. Parker, I have a question for you about youth recruitment. Bill C‑16 would create a new youth recruitment offence with a maximum sentence of five years. So we're talking about recruiting someone under the age of 18 to commit a crime.
Do you think the sentence provided is sufficient, should it be longer or is it useless?
Co-Director, Kindex Research and Knowledge Centre
Thank you for this question.
I'm not necessarily prepared to speak to the sentence length. That's not my area of expertise, but I will say, from decades of research and frontline experience, that this type of coercive control is central to child abuse and sexual exploitation.
Children are controlled through fear, dependency and the normalization of that. They will do things even without physical force, because they can sense that resistance feels unsafe or futile. That is a heinous crime that needs to be considered seriously.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair (Rhéal Éloi Fortin) Bloc Rhéal Fortin
Thank you, Ms. Parker.
Ms. Jolie, in your opinion, does Bill C‑16 properly address the issue of the recruitment of young people?
Chief Operating Officer, Boost Child & Youth Advocacy Centre
I have to echo my colleague's comments. It's not my area of expertise to talk about youth and crime. I am not prepared to respond to that.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair (Rhéal Éloi Fortin) Bloc Rhéal Fortin
Is there anyone here who has expertise in this?
Ms. Zille, what is your opinion on the recruitment of young people?
Co-Chair of the Board, Child and Youth Advocacy Centres of Canada
I think it's important to recognize that the work we're doing in child and youth advocacy centres is around supporting the victims of crime, and that recruiting isn't in our area of expertise. I don't have the expertise to be able to comment on that or have an opinion specifically on that piece.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair (Rhéal Éloi Fortin) Bloc Rhéal Fortin
Thank you.
Ms. Hajek, your organization deals specifically with cases of elder abuse. That is something that concerns me and that I think is as important as the issue of harm to young people. Those people are often defenceless and need better protection.
Bill C‑16 establishes a number of measures, including with respect to coercive and controlling behaviour. That will certainly help your clientele.
I would like you to tell me whether there are other measures that you think would help better protect seniors.
Chief Executive Officer, Elder Abuse Prevention Ontario
It's just the recognition that regardless of the language we choose in the legislation, it is essential to take this back to the experience of the older adult themselves. More often than not, they're afraid to disclose and they cannot tell their story. If they remain in isolation and behind closed doors, that escalates and often does lead to homicide or other things that are worse than that.
It's important for us to have conversations with older adults and to have an avenue where they are feeling empowered to safeguard their own selves in community. It really comes down to how everything we do as an organization is through that preventative lens. We're trying to educate older adults to look out for things like frauds and scams, but on the coercive control piece, it does limit a person's life when someone is taking control of the older adult's finances and they have limited health care access. Often that can lead to mortality as well.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair (Rhéal Éloi Fortin) Bloc Rhéal Fortin
You say they need to be better informed. In your opinion, are the tools available sufficient, or should we consider providing other tools to train seniors on preventing potential fraud or abuse?
Chief Executive Officer, Elder Abuse Prevention Ontario
There is our organization, as well as the organizations across Canada, my colleagues who are involved in this work in various provinces and territories. There are a lot of resources out there. We have helplines, and we have different information and referral services.
For the most part, though, if the older adult is coerced, where they are isolated from the community and don't have access to those resources, there are other measures that can be put in place. For example, we can work through local police departments to do wellness checks, not necessarily showing up at the door in a uniform but checking in. We could also teach our neighbours to check on their neighbours. If you haven't seen somebody for a few days, what's to stop you from knocking on the door and saying, “I haven't seen you for a while. Is there anything else I can do for you?”
As a society, we have an obligation to look out for each other and to be supportive of those who don't have those resources.