Justice Committee on June 10th, 2026

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I'm not here to talk about police enforcement or police strategies. I can tell you that I did meet with the chief of police in Sudbury, who told me that the private member's bill was discussed and dealt with at the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police. They endorsed the bill and felt that it was a very worthy step in terms of accountability towards the crimes and the criminals committing those crimes.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

You used to work with David Lametti. David Lametti referred to drug dealers as “a single mother, a person who needs to put bread on the table”. Is your view different?

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Again, this bill is very much targeted towards making criminals accountable not only for the crimes they commit, but also for the harm those crimes cause to victims as well as communities and the organizations that are providing services to those victims of crimes.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Chair, do I have more time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

You have 15 seconds left.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Okay. That's all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

We will move to Ms. Lattanzio.

Please go ahead for five minutes.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, MP Lapointe, for your private member's bill. Congratulations.

My questions are going to be directed to the officials.

Why is it important that restitution orders be based on losses that can be quantified and supported by evidence before the courts?

[Aleksander Godlewski]

As we've talked a bit about it today, these orders are really rooted in the sentencing process. That informs those considerations. It's also because the courts have been very clear that these orders are not intended to take over the role of the civil courts. Criminal courts are not the right place, frankly, to be untangling complex transactions or to be determining complex questions of fault. It really is because of how related they are to the sentencing process.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Can organizations face significant costs when supporting victims of crime and responding to the impacts of this criminal activity in their communities?

[Aleksander Godlewski]

If I understand the question, it is currently possible for organizations to receive restitution orders if they do fall under the types of expenses that are contemplated in section 738, for example.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

How would this make it fairer?

[Aleksander Godlewski]

I won't speak to the fairer part, but what I'll say is that, on my reading, the part about this bill that is novel is not the fact that organizations can receive the orders. What it does that's different is it allows organizations to be paid for new types of expenses related to certain offences for drug and human trafficking. In that sense, the general provisions in section 738 aren't really written to address expenses where someone is paying an expense to help someone else as a result of a crime. That's where this bill is doing something different.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

When Parliament creates this new restitution mechanism, what are some of the key legal and operational considerations that one must take into account?

[Aleksander Godlewski]

The courts have been clearer previously about the role of restitution and the importance of restitution in the sentencing process. Some of those types of important considerations will be whether these expenses can be easily proven. For example, are they readily ascertainable? Are they likely to be connected to specific offenders? All of those things would be important considerations.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Would it be fair to say that any restitution framework must strike a balance between supporting those affected by crime while also remaining in a workable state for courts to administer?

[Aleksander Godlewski]

I think that's a fair statement. If there's a framework that's not workable for a court to administer, it's unlikely to be used by the court, so I think it's a fair statement.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Okay.

Can you speak to the importance of ensuring that the Criminal Code provisions are applied consistently across the different forms of victimization, including trafficking, sexual violence, intimate partner violence and criminal harassment?

[Aleksander Godlewski]

When we're in the process of designing a policy, one of the key questions we ask is, what's the intent of the policy? In that respect, as I understand from the preamble of this bill, it's designed to address drug and human trafficking and their impacts on communities.

It's always a useful question to ask if there are related types of offending if that is something also worth looking at.

I think it's a good question and a fair consideration for the committee.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

With regard to the element of judicial discretion, why is it such an important factor in the restitution orders or in this private member's bill?

[Aleksander Godlewski]

Restitution orders play a very important role in the sentencing process. They can achieve a lot of the objectives of sentencing. Sentencing is an individualized exercise that courts undertake, so in that respect it's important. To answer your question, judges are conducting individual assessments that depend quite a lot on the facts of the case. It's a very important consideration for that reason.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

From a criminal law perspective, what challenges can arise when attempting to distinguish between direct losses caused by an offence and broader social costs associated with crime?

[Aleksander Godlewski]

I would add briefly that the criminal process comes into play after a crime has been committed when we're talking about sentencing. If we're talking about the broader social costs of crime, many of those expenses can be seen in many different areas of society. For example, I note that one of the expenses listed in this bill is related to harm reduction programs. Some of the costs that organizations bear sometimes are at different stages of that process. When we're talking about criminal sentencing, we're talking about sentencing after a crime has already happened.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Baber, you have five minutes.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I have a couple of questions for the officials, but first I want to address Madam Lapointe very briefly. I really want to put politics aside.

I do thank you for bringing this bill forward. About 20 years ago, my last year of law school, I was a supervisor at a community legal aid clinic. I dealt with very many organizations, the type of organizations that you contemplate. However, I do have to say that I take exception to the fact that you propose to provide restitution for organizations that actually perpetuate crime in the community, that contribute to crime in the community. I kindly ask that you perhaps reconsider those at amendment stage.

Ms. Wells, I understand that, on average, less than 2% of cases actually enjoy restitution orders as of the last couple of years. Am I in the ballpark?