Evidence of meeting #34 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victims.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
I'm sorry, but I think I missed part of the interpretation. I think I heard it, but it's just hard—
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I don't mean to be rude by cutting you off, but time is running out. The question was, doesn't the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights already provide for compensation for similar cases?
Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Both the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights and the Criminal Code outline the right of victims to put forward a request for restitution. Yes.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Under the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights, the definition of “victim” is “an individual who has suffered”, so it seems to me to exclude an organization. Do I have that right?
Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
You're correct in terms of the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights, but the Criminal Code uses different language in section 738.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
That being the case, in your view, should the charter be amended such that the definition of “victim” includes not only an individual, but also, say, a community organization or a corporation?
Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
It's a good question. I don't know the answer. I don't know if my colleague can speak to that.
The restitution orders under section 738 can be about victims, but they can also be about others, so it's possible that there could be differences between the two statutes. I don't know if my colleague has anything to add.
Liberal
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair. I respect your decision, but I would ask that, in the future, you take into consideration the fact that interpretation problems may cause me to lose precious seconds.
I understand, and that's fine for now, but I just wanted to make you aware that time spent on interpretation means less time for the witnesses to answer my questions. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid
Thank you for that.
I would welcome the witnesses, if they have a response they'd like to add to the question Monsieur Fortin posed, to please send it to us in writing. We would like to deliberate on that as well.
Thank you very much.
Moving on to our second round, we have Mr. Baber for five minutes.
Please go ahead.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
Thank you.
Thank you very much for your attendance, MP Lapointe.
Looking at the bill, you proposed the payment of “expenses to provide harm reduction programs, including overdose and infectious disease prevention programs”. To confirm, does that include safe injection sites or not?
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
Again, I am here to talk about the goal of the bill, which is to give shape to communities and community organizations that provide supports to the victims of these crimes. I am not here to bear opinions on what services are deemed to be effective.
I am not a health care expert. This list of services has been developed by people who are in the field—first responders—and provide services to those victims of crime directly, so they reflect the consultations I've had.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
I understand that you're not opining on the quality of such services, but your bill explicitly provides for the restitution of expenses “to provide harm reduction programs”, and that includes drug injection sites.
The challenge I have is that we had testimony from witnesses, in the very chair you're sitting in right now, from the Toronto Police Association, who said very clearly that drug injection sites increase local crime and neighbourhood crime. Would you agree with that or not?
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
Again, I cannot comment on what a witness has said before this committee. I can tell you that the list of services provided in the bill is there as a result of the consultations I've had with people who provide these services directly to the victims of these crimes.
I am not an expert in the fields of health care, social services or addictions—
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
—but I respect the consultations and the input they've had in the drafting of this bill.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
In your view, if a local institution has the effect of manifesting crime, attracting dealers, attracting gangs, causing violence, diverting supply, inviting traffickers and inviting underage persons to traffic or to solicit narcotics, should such an institution be made a beneficiary of such a restitution order, as you propose in your bill?
It's a simple question.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
Again, I will tell you that the list of eligible expenses to be considered by a judge.... That judicial decision-making rests with a judge. This bill does not in any way try to remove the decisions that a judge is empowered to make at that point in time, when charges are laid and restitution orders are made.
I respect that judicial process, just like I respect the consultations I received from frontline providers.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
You may remember a woman named Karolina Huebner-Makurat, a 44-year-old mother of two who was hit by a stray bullet outside of the South Riverdale Community Health Centre on Queen Street East near Carlaw Avenue on July 7, 2023. It's a case that shook the city of Toronto and the entire province of Ontario. I find it very objectionable that, seemingly, as a result of this bill, which I'm sure is well intentioned, the South Riverdale Community Health Centre, which attracted the very violence that resulted in the loss of this mother of two, could be made a beneficiary of such a restitution order.
Looking at proposed subparagraph 738(1)(f)(i) in the main section of your bill, you're also talking about “expenses to provide emergency shelter”. We all agree that there is a homelessness catastrophe after 11 years of Liberal governments in our country. However, I'd like to point you to the fact that Toronto city shelters are now a standard operating procedure.
Handing out needles and drug accessories, in very many instances, actually perpetuates and contributes to crime within the community. Is it your view that upon the opening of what we refer to as a new drug den within a residential area, such an institution that hands out needles should be eligible for a restitution order? That's what proposed subparagraph 738(1)(f)(i) says in your bill.
Liberal
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
Through you, Chair, I will simply say that the advocacy you were making today is certainly echoed in my bill. We want to protect victims of these crimes, both drug trafficking and human trafficking crimes. You've listed the impacts that they've had. I can tell you that the communities in northern Ontario have also been very much impacted by the crimes of human and drug trafficking.
This bill is meant to bring reparation to the victims as well as their families and to the organizations that provide vital supports to those victims of the crime.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid
Thank you very much.
We will move to Ms. Gladu for five minutes.
Please go ahead.
Liberal
Marilyn Gladu Liberal Sarnia—Lambton—Bkejwanong, ON
Thank you so much, Chair.
Thank you, MP Lapointe, for being here. Congratulations on getting to this stage with your private member’s bill.
I understand what you're outlining in your bill, but I have a couple of practical questions.
If the judge is the person who is going to assign a reparation to be made to an organization, how do they know which organizations would benefit? Is it something that the prosecutors will suggest? How would they become aware of that?
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
A judge would listen and weigh evidence in a case, just like they do now. Restitution orders exist within the Criminal Code. They would make those decisions largely based on the evidence that is produced.
It is very important that in terms of the organizations the eligible costs would need to be very much verified. They would need to be credible and related to the crime itself.
This bill is very much in keeping with the restitution process that already exists within the Criminal Code.
Liberal
Marilyn Gladu Liberal Sarnia—Lambton—Bkejwanong, ON
Very good.
It would be the responsibility of the lawyers to gather the cost information and probably the prosecution, I would think.
There was some information shared earlier about a very low percentage—I think 2% was the number—of restitution orders that are actually made. It makes me wonder what is needed to make this a tool that is used more often. Is it training for the lawyers? Is it training for the judges? Could you comment on that?