Evidence of meeting #38 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
I think that's a good question for you as well.
Do you really think you need another agency here?
C/Supt Mike Saghbini
It's not for me to decide whether it's best to have another agency. That's for—
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
I'm not worried about all the gentlemen and ladies to your left. You and I are having a conversation.
Director, the Auditor General says that the RCMP is short about 3,400 officers. Would you agree with that estimate or the sentiment?
C/Supt Mike Saghbini
To be honest, I don't know about our HR status, so it would be hard for me to comment on that.
Conservative
C/Supt Mike Saghbini
I think every government agency is short. I think we are short. We're working, and churning our cadets out of Depot. There are definitely people retiring and people coming through the process.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
Would you agree with me that this shortage affects the RCMP's ability to police financial crimes?
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
Wouldn't it make sense to beef up your agency, and specifically your department?
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
I think that's a government policy question, but all right.
I'll go now to Mr. Stewart, who I understand is the deputy minister in charge of this project.
Mr. Stewart, you have the provincial forces. You have all the securities regulators. You have the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions. You have the Canadian anti-fraud centre. You have FINTRAC. Then you have the federal policing units, such as the integrated money-laundering investigative teams. You have the financial crime coordination centre. You have the integrated market enforcement teams. Then you have the federal serious and organized crime unit to—I think—coordinate all these people.
Now you're coming before all of us and telling us that we need yet another agency.
Deputy Minister, Financial Crimes Agency Creation
Sir, I did not make the decision to put this agency in place, but what I can tell you is that, from my perspective, it's warranted. It goes back to my answer to Ms. Begum. At the moment, the system lacks the capabilities necessary to address the most complex forms of financial crime.
With all due regard for the RCMP, they are stretched thin. I think that shortage of officers is more on the contract policing side than it is on the federal policing side, to be clear, but federal policing is short resources. They're stretched thin. They have to cover a lot of ground, such as national security issues and all those things, and personal protection for people.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
Are you taking away the financial crimes mandate of the RCMP?
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
How are you going to not end up with duplication? You can't even figure out jurisdiction among yourselves.
Deputy Minister, Financial Crimes Agency Creation
You know, I think we can do this. I think we can. I'll tell you why we can do this. The commissioner of the agency ultimately will define its objective function and what it's going to do. I'm telling you today that the vision we have for this agency is that it will work hand in glove with other agencies. It's not going to usurp anybody. It's going to be partnerships.
Then there are capabilities that the RCMP has that the 200 people in the agency will never have. All these sophisticated skill sets, like covert operations and wiretapping, are skill sets that we're going to work with the RCMP to deliver.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
I don't understand why we're unable to beef up the RCMP. I don't understand why we can't integrate that talent into the RCMP, but I am concerned with the fact that the mandate and the jurisdiction have not been defined. In my view, respectfully, that should not be done by cabinet and that should not be done by the department. Oversight on jurisdiction is something that parliamentarians are vested in. We should be able to define that jurisdiction as we examine this legislation. Do you not suppose so?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid
I wish you had left more time for them to answer the question, but unfortunately we are out of time for you, Mr. Baber.
We're now moving on to Mr. Chang for five minutes.
Please go ahead.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Financial crime is becoming increasingly complex, organized and international. Canadians are feeling this impact directly every day. I want to begin by thanking the government for bringing forward Bill C-29 and for taking action to strengthen Canada's response to serious financial crimes.
Mr. Taylor, financial crime cases can involve highly technical evidence and multiple jurisdictions. What specialized expertise will prosecutors need to deal effectively with serious, complex cases like this agency will deal with?
Senior General Counsel and Director General, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
I think what prosecutors need is to ensure that there are robust investigative tools in order to collect evidence, and they need to be able to work directly with law enforcement to support the marshalling of that evidence in order to advance successful prosecutions. At the end of the day, a prosecutor's responsibility is to make submissions to demonstrate that a particular individual has committed the crime they've been alleged to have committed. I think your question is really more focused on the investigative side and on having the resources and the capacity within the system as a whole to be able to go after financial crimes in a more effective manner.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Thank you.
Deputy Minister Stewart, financial crime networks operate across borders. How would this new agency strengthen Canada's ability to share intelligence and coordinate investigations with international law enforcement partners?