Evidence of meeting #9 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-9.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Bussières McNicoll  Director, Fundamental Freedoms Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Alford  Professor, As an Individual
Pardy  Professor of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual
Al-Azem  Director of Legal Affairs, National Council of Canadian Muslims
Sandler  Chair, Alliance of Canadians Combatting Antisemitism, As an Individual
Hallett  Executive Director, Canadian Teachers' Federation
Butler  Associate Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics
Kogan  Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics
Silver  Director of Policy and Projects, Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights

5:25 p.m.

Associate Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics

Deidre Butler

We speak to you today as scholars. For over three decades, universities and colleges have been the front lines of contemporary anti-Semitism in Canada. Since October 7, 2023, our members describe campuses where anti-Semitism continues to surge unchecked and where Jew hatred is normalized, often under the guise that this is political speech or protected by academic freedom.

5:25 p.m.

Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics

Cary Kogan

NECA unequivocally affirms the urgent need to strengthen academic freedom, a right that must be exercised with academic responsibility. Critically, academic freedom cannot supersede the law, including hate speech laws. As experts on anti-Semitism, we submit examples from Canadian campuses. These illustrate the pressing need to clarify, update and strengthen hate crime legislation to address bias, prejudice and hate against all minoritized groups.

5:25 p.m.

Associate Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics

Deidre Butler

Too many Canadian professors and students promote violence and hatred, express support for the ideologies of designated terrorist organizations and demand the exclusion of Zionists. Their definition of Zionist is defamatory and bears no resemblance to the real meaning of Zionism that is an integral part of Canadian Jewish identity. Hate directed against Zionists is hate directed against 94% of Jews in Canada.

5:25 p.m.

Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics

Cary Kogan

When hate is normalized, bad actors are emboldened. From hostage posters shredded and pins stuck into the photos of infant and elderly hostages, to vandalism and mischief, including shattering windows, breaking into buildings, spray-painting hateful graffiti, defacing dorm rooms and disrupting classes, these crimes are divorced from their intent and impact when they are not recognized as crimes motivated by hate.

5:25 p.m.

Associate Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics

Deidre Butler

Campus encampments displayed signs saying, “No Zionists allowed”, restricting access and excluding many Jewish and other students. On November 9, 2023, the anniversary of Kristallnacht, students at several universities held protest with posters showing a foot smashing through glass to evoke the historical trauma of the Holocaust. At one university, faculty and students sheltered in offices under security but still had to walk through a screaming crowd to attend classes. Just two weeks ago, an angry mob of students swarmed a small group of Jewish students who were holding a memorial for those murdered on October 7. Across Canada, student groups on social media continue to call for the exclusion of all Zionists from campus.

5:25 p.m.

Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics

Cary Kogan

The glorification of terrorism and anti-Jewish hate work together on our campuses. Consider how an encampment sign demanding resistance against the Zionist entity by any means necessary was prominently featured while a masked man proudly flaunted a Hamas bandana. To be clear, Hamas is a recognized terrorist organization. Hamas' charter calls for the obliteration of Israel and justifies the killing of Jews worldwide. Posters and social media include images of tanks, Molotov cocktails and Kalashnikov rifles.

5:25 p.m.

Associate Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics

Deidre Butler

Campus protesters in their social media posts call for the destruction of Israel “from the water to water”, for global intifada, for death to Jews and death to Zionists and display inverted red triangles, a symbol employed by Hamas to identify targets for assassination.

Professors encourage and sometimes require for course credit participation and support of protests and actions that frequently amplify these terror messages and symbols. Some even celebrate the October 7 massacre.

5:25 p.m.

Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics

Cary Kogan

As scholars, we support the efforts of this government in addressing rising hate in developing Bill C-9. We support the recognition in Bill C-9 of intimidation and impeding access to space. As we have illustrated, terror symbols and the promotion of terrorist ideologies are key tools for propagating hate on campuses.

We support the proposal by Mark Sandler and ALCCA. The separate charge of wilful promotion of terrorism should be introduced, as well as the amendment to the bill dropping the requirement for evidence of hateful intent when terror symbols are displayed.

5:25 p.m.

Associate Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics

Deidre Butler

We speak to you today as professors who research anti-Semitism, with examples from campuses across Canada. Hatred undermines the university's mission of advancing knowledge and training future Canadians. Hatred impedes the free flow of ideas that drive innovation and creativity, which are essential to the future of Canada.

When identity-based hate is allowed to flourish on campus, no one is safe. Ultimately, all society is diminished.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Marc Miller

Thank you.

Mr. Silver.

Brandon Silver Director of Policy and Projects, Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights

Honourable members, thank you for giving me the opportunity to address the committee.

The study of Bill C‑9, which aims to combat hatred, is very relevant at this time, as we are experiencing a real crisis of hatred.

Hate crimes have more than doubled here over the past five years, with nearly 20,000 incidents reported by the police. Most of these crimes target Canadians based on their race, religion or sexual orientation.

This rapid rise is underpinned by what feels like a culture of impunity surrounding incitement to hate. History has taught us that the most unspeakable of crimes begin with incitement.

The Holocaust did not begin with the gas chambers. It began with words and the stereotyping and dehumanization of Jews, in the same way that the killing fields of the genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda started with radio propaganda calling them cockroaches.

The Supreme Court of Canada enshrined this principle in law, affirming that Léon Mugesera, who was then living in Quebec, was responsible for participating in the genocide against the Tutsis due to his hateful speech, and should be deported, even if he hadn't been in Rwanda when the killings themselves occurred.

In the hate speech trilogy of Supreme Court cases in 1990 of Keegstra, Taylor and Andrews, the court affirmed the constitutionality of Criminal Code restriction on hate speech. This was further enshrined and refined by courts in the subsequent decades, always holding that hate speech can be proscribed in compliance with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Not only are hate speech prohibitions not in breach of the charter, they actually help protect it. Hate is an assault on the inherent dignity of the person, on the equal dignity of all people, on the right of minorities to protection from group vilifying hate and on Canada's international treaty obligations.

There is no right to use one's freedom of expression to infringe upon the rights of others.

The combatting hate act makes a meaningful contribution to protecting Canadians and promoting human rights in the face of rising hate crime. The provisions on hate symbols and the targeting of community institutions are particularly important as a matter of principle and policy.

Banning the wilful promotion of hatred against an identifiable group by displaying specific Nazi or terrorist hate symbols in public addresses a leading form of incitement today. These hate symbols represent violence and are anti-democratic in nature. Such expression vilifies and excludes targeted minorities, incites harm against them and undermines broader human rights norms.

Neo-Nazism and any of the designated terrorist groups are a danger to Canadians. Their hate symbols send a clear message. A Nazi symbol tells Holocaust survivors they are not safe or equal in Canada and encourages white supremacists to act against them.

The ISIS flag tells Yazidi and minority Muslim survivors of terrorist atrocities such as the Ahmadiyyah and Ismailis that they are targets in Canada and encourages Islamist extremists to act against them.

These are hate groups that murder, maim and menace Canadians and seek to dismantle democracy. That is what their symbols represent.

Criminalizing the intimidation or the impeding of access to a community institution associated with a minority group, such as a day care, seniors' residence or place of worship, protects the freedoms of vulnerable people.

No Canadian, whether they are a Jewish toddler being dropped off at a day care, a Muslim going to mosque, or an LGTBQ+ person attending an event at their community centre, should face hateful harassment and obstruction in their neighbourhoods.

There are always legitimate legal debates surrounding any legislation being proposed. However, saying that one’s constituents cannot express themselves without resorting to wilfully promoting hate in Nazi or terrorist symbols or obstructing access for vulnerable groups to their crucial communal institutions, says much about the nature of their intended expression. These elements of Bill C-9 are a necessary and narrowly tailored response to a massive rise in hate crimes, and a reaffirmation of principles that Canadian courts have already upheld for decades.

To truly effectively combat hate crime, legislation must be followed by government leadership. The Prime Minister and his cabinet ministers should make it a habit to visit victims to offer them comfort, and to immediately and unequivocally condemn hate crimes when they occur.

As well, the government should mobilize federal, provincial and municipal law enforcement and leaders to move together on a common cause. The government can convene the federal, provincial and territorial meeting of ministers of justice and public safety for a special meeting on combatting hate crimes, and create an FPT working group that meets regularly to enhance co-operation and effective enforcement in that regard.

The aspects of Bill C‑9 that deal with hate propaganda and access to religious or cultural sites are particularly necessary. However, the government must show leadership beyond these measures.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Marc Miller

Thank you, Mr. Silver, and thank you to all the witnesses.

We will now begin the first round of questions.

Mr. Baber, you have the floor for six minutes.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

Mr. Sandler, welcome to Ottawa.

I trust you're aware of the fact you were invited here both by the Conservatives and by the Liberals.

5:35 p.m.

Chair, Alliance of Canadians Combatting Antisemitism, As an Individual

Mark Sandler

It's good to hear.

Thank you.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

I think that speaks to your expertise on the issues to be discussed today.

For 35 years, we used the Supreme Court's definition of the word “hatred” in Keegstra, which is, “emotion of an intense and extreme nature that is clearly associated with vilification and detestation.”

The Liberal definition of hatred is an “emotion that involves detestation or vilification”. They removed the words “intense and extreme nature”, and instead of being clearly associated with vilification and detestation, they just want an “emotion that involves” them.

Am I wrong to think the Liberal definition of hatred prescribes a significantly lower bar to convict for hate speech?

5:35 p.m.

Chair, Alliance of Canadians Combatting Antisemitism, As an Individual

Mark Sandler

You're not wrong in the sense that I wholly support the use of the precise language the Supreme Court of Canada used in Keegstra to define hatred.

I am concerned the definition that currently exists arguably does lower that standard, particularly in the use of “detestation or vilification” as opposed to “detestation and vilification” and some of the other points you've made. I do not want any excuse for a challenge to the existing hate propaganda sections of the Criminal Code based on a perceived difference in the standards set for hatred.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

You've heard some of the other witnesses today articulating a concern that the proposed definition is unconstitutional.

5:35 p.m.

Chair, Alliance of Canadians Combatting Antisemitism, As an Individual

Mark Sandler

My point is that the Supreme Court of Canada upheld the hate propaganda section of the Criminal Code on the basis that it set a standard for “wilful”. It set a standard for “promotion”. It set a standard for “hatred”. That's what made the section constitutional, so I do not want to interfere in the slightest with the standards the Supreme Court of Canada set, which were the basis for its determination that the legislation was constitutional.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

Bill C-9 removes the requirement of the attorney general 's consent for the allaying of hate speech offences. Are you concerned that politically motivated Crowns or police may initiate prosecutions that aren't appropriate and specifically, to go further, that vexatious litigants may litigate private prosecutions for hate speech and appeal decisions that try to end or block such prosecutions?

5:35 p.m.

Chair, Alliance of Canadians Combatting Antisemitism, As an Individual

Mark Sandler

I am concerned, and I have expressed the concern for over 30 years that the attorney general 's consent is a safeguard against the frivolous and vexatious use of these sensitive sections of the Criminal Code. That's why I proposed either the retention of the attorney general 's consent, notwithstanding the difficulties at times in getting that consent or getting that consent in a timely way, or, as an acceptable alternative, that consent be retained for privately initiated investigations. That's the real danger—the privately laid charges.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

The new stand-alone criminal hatred offence can be laid in response to any offence contrary to any act of Parliament. I find that to be very concerning, because we may attract criminal prosecution for what is otherwise civil or quasi-criminal legislation.

Would you recommend we confine the application of the hate offence to conduct that is truly criminal in nature?

5:35 p.m.

Chair, Alliance of Canadians Combatting Antisemitism, As an Individual

Mark Sandler

I definitely agree that the hate offences should apply not to quasi-criminal offences but to criminal offences. If there is concern about the scope of the present provision, then one can either deal with it by confining hate offences to the Criminal Code or by, as I would suggest, specifying the acts of Parliament to which it applies.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

Bill C-9 repeals subsection 430(4.1), “Mischief”, for targeting places of worship because of bias or prejudice; going forward, hatred will be required. Doesn't that mean it will be more difficult to get a conviction for mischief against religious property? It would be more limited in scope if this section were repealed and someone were to desecrate a church, a synagogue or a mosque.

5:35 p.m.

Chair, Alliance of Canadians Combatting Antisemitism, As an Individual

Mark Sandler

Let me put it this way, because in essence I'm going to agree with you, but I'll frame it in my words. That's what lawyers do.

I was an advocate when this section was created to show that the desecration of places of worship and other similar places are treated in a more serious way. That's why this offence was created. It only requires proof that the vandalization was motivated by bias, prejudice or hatred, which is a lower standard than hatred.

I understand the use of hatred alone for direct offences involving speech, but for the vandalism of religious institutions and the like, for me, this section should be retained as is. We shouldn't be making it more difficult to label the desecration of religious institutions as hate offences.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

I will take your invitation and I will phrase it in my own way, which is that I believe that repealing this section will make it easier for someone to get away with desecration or mischief against a religious institution.

Mr. Sandler, if a person obstructs and intimidates someone as they're walking into their religious institution or their educational institution, isn't that already criminal under the Criminal Code? It could be mischief, it could be intimidation or it could be assault.