Evidence of meeting #20 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joint Chair  Hon. Yonah Martin (Senator, British Columbia, C)
Joint Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Wassim Bouanani
Romayne Gallagher  Clinical Professor, Palliative Medicine, University of British Columbia, Canadian Society of Palliative Care Physicians
Kelly Masotti  Vice-President, Advocacy, Canadian Cancer Society
Daniel Nowoselski  Advocacy Manager, Hospice Palliative Care, Canadian Cancer Society
Dipti Purbhoo  Executive Director, The Dorothy Ley Hospice
Donna Cansfield  Chair of the Board of Directors, The Dorothy Ley Hospice
Stanley Kutcher  Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG
Pierre Dalphond  Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG
Finlay of Llandaff  Professor of Palliative Medicine, As an Individual
David Henderson  Senior Medical Director, Integrated Palliative Care, Nova Scotia Health, As an Individual
Madeline Li  Psychiatrist and Associate Professor, As an Individual

7:20 p.m.

Executive Director, The Dorothy Ley Hospice

Dipti Purbhoo

I indicated that 60% of our funding comes from the provincial government and 40% of our funding must be fundraised, so that's about $1.5 million and it's growing every year. When we talk about accessible, high-quality care, we need to look at funding for hospices.

In terms of caregivers, the other things that are really essential for caregivers are information, support, advice, guidance and counselling along the entire journey. That is what we do at the hospice. We have exceptional staff who do that work, and I can't tell you how much distress it relieves for caregivers and for the individual. It also helps keep people home.

Some of those social supportive services, with the volunteers who go into the home, are also exceptional—

7:20 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you, Ms. Purbhoo.

We'll now go to Senator Kutcher for three minutes.

7:20 p.m.

Stanley Kutcher Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses. I really appreciate you reminding us that we have huge challenges in improving equitable access to high-quality medical care across Canada, and this absolutely includes palliative care.

I have two questions for The Dorothy Ley Hospice group [Technical difficulty—Editor] and then the second one.

I understand that the hospice provides high-quality palliative care, but you still see patients who request MAID even though they have received high-quality palliative care. For these patients, do they state that their request for MAID is due to not receiving quality palliative care, or do they choose MAID, even after they receive high-quality palliative care, for another reason?

7:20 p.m.

Executive Director, The Dorothy Ley Hospice

Dipti Purbhoo

Individuals who request MAID in our care at The Dorothy Ley Hospice have received high-quality palliative care. However, as I said earlier, they are choosing MAID for a reason, whether it's because they don't want their family to watch them die and suffer in that way or because it's a choice for them or because their suffering still isn't relieved with all of the other options in palliative care.

Again, high-quality palliative care often prolongs life and often provides good quality of life. It doesn't mean that nobody will access medical assistance in dying, but it does mean that people will be making an informed choice on whether medical assistance in dying is really what they want in order to address their worries, concerns, distress or pain. There are other palliative care options that might assist them.

7:20 p.m.

Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG

Stanley Kutcher

Thank you for that. I wholeheartedly agree with what you said.

We've heard concerns that people are receiving MAID because the quality of palliative care they get is poor. Would you know of any data showing that the people who have received palliative care and then chosen MAID have done so primarily because the palliative care they have is [Technical difficulty—Editor].

7:20 p.m.

Executive Director, The Dorothy Ley Hospice

Dipti Purbhoo

I don't have data, but I do have anecdotal data. From understanding the high-quality palliative care that our organization delivers, I can certainly say that they are making the choice because it is something they want.

I would say, though, in my experience as a nurse in palliative care for many years, I have seen over the last many years people choosing medical assistance in dying if they can't get enough home care to support a caregiver to keep their loved one home, or if they can't get into the hospice because there are not enough residential beds. As I have also seen, when they're not able to access palliative care at the level and standard that I think Dr. Gallagher talked about, they may decide to choose medical assistance in dying.

7:20 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you, Senator.

Senator Dalphond, you have the floor for three minutes.

7:20 p.m.

Pierre Dalphond Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for their contributions to our work.

My questions are for the representatives of the Canadian Cancer Society.

You said, if I understood properly, that 67% of MAID requests are related to people suffering from cancer. Do you have data on how many of them were receiving palliative care?

7:25 p.m.

Advocacy Manager, Hospice Palliative Care, Canadian Cancer Society

Daniel Nowoselski

Unfortunately, we do not. Given the quality and availability of data on palliative care access specifically in relation to MAID, it is not disaggregated in that way.

7:25 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG

Pierre Dalphond

Based on your experience, is there a spectrum of palliative care that starts first at home and then moves to a special place afterwards?

7:25 p.m.

Advocacy Manager, Hospice Palliative Care, Canadian Cancer Society

Daniel Nowoselski

In an ideal scenario, it would depend on the situation and the wishes of the person receiving care. People could choose to go to a hospice if that's available to them, receive it at home or receive it in a hospital or long-term care home. We think that in an ideal scenario, they should be able to choose where to receive care. Often it's their primary care provider or a specialist who identifies them and transfers them to a palliative care specialist, but that can occur in many different settings.

7:25 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG

Pierre Dalphond

Are they asking to stay at home as much as possible, or do they prefer to be in a specialized centre where they feel there's more care and they feel reassured?

7:25 p.m.

Advocacy Manager, Hospice Palliative Care, Canadian Cancer Society

Daniel Nowoselski

In the polling we have done, more respondents tend to say they would prefer to die at home, but circumstances differ depending on each individual case. I would also say that hospices aren't often available, particularly outside of urban settings, so the choice to die at home might be made because of a lack of different options, not necessarily because that's what their preference is.

7:25 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG

Pierre Dalphond

Would it be possible to provide us the results of that survey or that research?

7:25 p.m.

Advocacy Manager, Hospice Palliative Care, Canadian Cancer Society

7:25 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you very much. We'll now go to Senator Martin for three minutes.

7:25 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses once again for providing us with such important insights.

My question is for Dr. Gallagher. As a representative of the Canadian Society of Palliative Care Physicians, why do you think MAID should remain distinct from palliative care?

7:25 p.m.

Clinical Professor, Palliative Medicine, University of British Columbia, Canadian Society of Palliative Care Physicians

Dr. Romayne Gallagher

There are a number of reasons for that. For about the past 40 years or so, palliative care has been striving to show people that we do not hasten death and we do not shorten their life. The problem with combining it with MAID is that there is confusion. That's one of the reasons. That's actually supported by a 2021 study of public knowledge and attitudes concerning palliative care among Canadian people. They found that those who had a high perceived knowledge about palliative care were more likely to associate it with care provided as a last resort at the end of life. Despite 40 years of work, people were still associating palliative care with end of life, so combining MAID with palliative care would definitely cause that.

The other reason is that there are still people who have fears that palliative care somehow shortens life. I've certainly met people like that who have those fears, particularly with the so-called opioid crisis. Many people are fearful of using opioids, so we have to work hard with that, as we do not want it.

The other reason is that when MAID was first legalized, many health care providers, not understanding either palliative care or MAID, sort of thought palliative care would deal with this because it deals with all the end-of-life stuff. It was very chaotic, and our concern is that if we went back to that, for health care funders that would probably seem like the ideal thing because then everything would be kind of jammed together and you would have no extra funding. You would have two programs coexisting together, which would be cheaper. We do not feel as though that would provide quality care.

The other reason is that it's been our experience that in certain situations, providing MAID actually ends up consuming palliative care resources. As we've told you tonight, there are problems with accessing palliative care. We have the same human resource challenges—

7:30 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Could you complete that quickly, Dr. Gallagher?

7:30 p.m.

Clinical Professor, Palliative Medicine, University of British Columbia, Canadian Society of Palliative Care Physicians

Dr. Romayne Gallagher

Yes. Thank you.

We have the same human resource challenges that emergency departments everywhere have. We would like to use our palliative care resources to provide palliative care to all Canadians, obviously including those who want MAID, but we want to be seen as being distinct from MAID.

7:30 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you very much.

That brings our first panel to a close. I'd like to thank you, Dr. Gallagher, Ms. Masotti, Mr. Nowoselski, Ms. Cansfield and Ms. Purbhoo, for your testimony this evening and for answering the questions from the committee on the subject of palliative care and the issue of medical assistance in dying. It was very important for us to hear from you. We very much appreciate that.

With that, we will suspend very briefly as we prepare for our next panel. Thank you.

7:30 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

We will continue, colleagues.

It is my understanding that there is agreement for this to be a truncated session because there is a vote in the House. We'll go until 8:20 p.m. It has been agreed that everyone's times will be shortened by one minute, for both MPs and senators. All of us will give up a minute of our time so we can truncate this second panel.

I want to welcome our witnesses for the second panel. Thank you so much for lending us your time and expertise.

We have, as individuals, Baroness Ilora Finlay, Baroness of Llandaff and professor, by video conference; Dr. Henderson, senior medical director of integrated palliative care, Nova Scotia Health, here in person; and Dr. Madeline Li, psychiatrist and associate professor, by video conference. Thank you all for joining us.

We will begin with opening remarks by Baroness Finlay, followed by Dr. Henderson and then Dr. Li. You each have five minutes.

Baroness, go ahead.

7:30 p.m.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Professor of Palliative Medicine, As an Individual

Thank you for inviting me.

As legislators—and I'm a legislator—we must ensure that legislation's protective role for the vulnerable is reinforced, not weakened, and that the state's duty of care is fulfilled equitably, as exercised via its clinical workforce.

Canada's physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia deaths show a disproportionately rapid increase, even compared to Benelux countries. Removing the foreseeable death requirement in effect creates death on demand. Evaluation of patients is purely subjective, and consultations have never been qualitatively evaluated. Doctors have an inherent power differential in a consultation. Offering lethal drugs as a therapeutic option gives the subliminal message that what lies ahead is so awful that you would be better off dead. Subconsciously, this may reflect unconscious bias or ignorance, shortcuts in care or cost-saving motives.

The so-called safeguards are only broad, qualifying criteria, rather than verifiable safeguards. For example, foreseeable death was incredibly loose, as prognostication is notoriously inaccurate. According to the Royal College of General Practitioners, prognosticating beyond a few days has a scope of error that can extend into years.

Doctors, by their very compassion, often fail to detect coercion. U.K. data reveals that one in five elderly people is affected by abuse, particularly financial abuse, and neglect in their own home. Similar situations seem to exist in other countries in the developed world. Mental capacity impairments and distorted thinking are features of mental illness, with or without concomitant physical disease. Most clinicians are inadequately trained or experienced in assessing capacity.

Hence, including mental illness undermines suicide prevention policies and discriminates against those with mental distress by signalling they don't warrant ongoing psychiatric care or are of less value in society. The emerging accounts of those in poverty who are opting for MAID suggest an abandonment of society's duty to care for this group of citizens, yet many who strongly wish for death at one time later enjoy life and contribute to society in many unpredicted ways.

The drug mixtures used to end life have never been scientifically evaluated. Propofol's duration of action is short, at five to 10 minutes, as it's rapidly distributed in the body, yet rocuronium has a very long duration of total paralysis, making it likely that some patients will have regained consciousness as they die of asphyxia but appear to the observer to be tranquil, as they cannot move a muscle to signal distress.

Good palliative care does not include MAID. In my written submission, I gave three definitions of palliative care. All emphasize improvement in the quality of life for patients, their families and carers, aiming to help people live well until they die.

Distress and suffering require meticulous diagnosis through working with the patient, particularly where distress is amplified by financial worries, loneliness, fear and hopelessness. Any improvement can often be obtained very rapidly. I can give you an example of a man who referred to overwhelming distress, with his wife and daughter both in tears. His pain and nausea were controlled within an hour. All three commented they never believed things could be so greatly improved.

Medical assistance in dying is a euphemism for physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia of those thought to be terminally ill. It cannot be applied when the previous requirement of foreseeable death has been abandoned, because those being given lethal drugs are not dying.

In summary, Canada would do well to abandon the current expansion of its MAID law, which is an existential threat to those with disability or mental illness. Canada should invest in adequate specialist palliative care and move the provision of lethal drugs outside of health care, with prospective evaluation of the application consultations, research into the cocktail of drugs used and research into the short- and long-term effects on the bereaved.

7:35 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you very much.

Next we will have Dr. Henderson for five minutes.

October 18th, 2022 / 7:35 p.m.

Dr. David Henderson Senior Medical Director, Integrated Palliative Care, Nova Scotia Health, As an Individual

Thank you.

My name is Dave Henderson and I'm from Nova Scotia. I've been asked to speak as a palliative care physician. I'm the former president of the Canadian Society of Palliative Care Physicians. That was a few years ago, when MAID was initially starting up in Canada. I'm also the former president of both the New Brunswick Hospice Palliative Care Association and the Nova Scotia Hospice Palliative Care Association, and former board member of the Canadian Hospice Palliative Care Association. I currently chair a group we call Palliative 4 Canadians. It's made up of the senior leadership from four different organizations in Canada, and its sole purpose is to try to improve palliative care for all Canadians. They are the Canadian Virtual Hospice, Pallium Canada, the Canadian Society of Palliative Care Physicians and the Canadian Hospice Palliative Care Association.

I'm not going to reiterate a lot of the great comments that have been made by many of my very esteemed colleagues. You have all that information. I want to speak about some other issues that I feel are very important as we are looking into this issue.

I want to start off by saying that I'm not a religious man. I have said on several occasions in several different presentations I've done that I'm pretty sure I'm going straight to hell. I look forward to seeing many of you there as well. That's my standard, token maritime humour if anybody missed it.