Evidence of meeting #5 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was care.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Raphael Cohen-Almagor  Professor of Politics, University of Hull, As an Individual
Pierre Deschamps  Lawyer and Ethicist, As an Individual
Helen Long  Chief Executive Officer, Dying with Dignity Canada
James S. Cowan  Member of the Board of Directors and Former Senator, Dying with Dignity Canada
Joint Chair  Hon. Yonah Martin (Senator, British Columbia, C)
Marie-Françoise Mégie  Senator, Quebec (Rougemont), ISG
Stanley Kutcher  Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG
Pierre Dalphond  Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG
Melissa Andrew  Professor of Medicine in Geriatrics, Dalhousie University, Nova Scotia Health Authority, As an Individual
Michael Bach  Managing Director, Institute for Research and Development on Inclusion and Society, As an Individual
Georges L'Espérance  President and Neurosurgeon, Quebec Association for the Right to Die with Dignity

7:15 p.m.

Stanley Kutcher Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Before I start my three minutes, I'm asking you if you would mind asking one of the witnesses for more information. There was a statement made by Dr. Cohen-Almagor that advance requests are often made without fully informed consent. I would like you to ask him to provide the data to support that statement, please.

Senator Cowan, it's nice to see you again. Thank you for being here with us. My questions will be for you.

We have the Ipsos 2021 research that looks at advance directives and at mental illness as a sole condition, with the vast majority of Canadians supporting MAID for both of those. I wonder if the evidence of that study could be put into the evidence record, please.

We also, however, hear ideological, philosophical and theological arguments against allowing competent people to make decisions about their own body. What's your opinion on the disconnect between what a substantial majority of Canadians report and arguments that are made by other people, not the competent person who is suffering, that they and not the competent person should make the decision about MAID?

The second question is this. Many physicians are well trained to determine if a patient does or does not have the capacity to give informed consent. Indeed, the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons identifies capacity assessment as a core competency for psychiatrists. I would ask the committee to enter into evidence that document, which I can provide you.

Given your legal experience, would you say that properly trained physicians can provide capacity assessments that might be required by the courts to determine if a person has the competency to give consent for MAID?

7:15 p.m.

Member of the Board of Directors and Former Senator, Dying with Dignity Canada

James S. Cowan

Absolutely, Senator Kutcher. Certainly in my experience as a practitioner, I often called on medical practitioners to provide opinions as to capacity. I always found them to be ready, willing and able to do that. As you say, they are trained. That is a core competency that they have. Physicians do that every day.

I think some cases, as you would know from your own experience, are more difficult to assess than others, but that's what physicians do. It is a clinical decision made by trained professionals, and shouldn't be made by lawyers or politicians. I think it's a clinical decision, and that's what ought to be done.

There obviously are individuals who hold a different view than I do about the appropriateness of MAID and whether it ought or ought not to be permitted, and again, it is a matter of individual choice. If an individual chooses to seek MAID and meets the very strict criteria that are set forth in the legislation, then the court has said and Parliament has said that they are entitled to access that service. I don't believe others ought to impose their view, however firmly held or however strongly held, or be in a position to impose that view on others.

As you have said, and as the polls that have been conducted.... I think if we haven't already, we will shortly be updating that Ipsos poll to include recent and consistent data showing that for the overwhelming majority of Canadians of all religions and no religions, who suffer from a disability or no disability, or who have mental illness or don't have mental illness, the numbers are consistently high that they favour the MAID regime that we have and indeed are anxious that the legislation be amended and expanded to allow for advance requests.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Senator Kutcher.

Before I go on to Senator Dalphond, Senator Kutcher made a request, and I want to make sure that I heard it correctly. It was addressed to Dr. Cohen-Almagor.

I believe you said that you would request that Dr. Cohen-Almagor provide substantiation or evidence to back the assertion that I think you said he made to the effect that MAID is sometimes undertaken without respecting the appropriate safeguards.

Perhaps you could correct me if I didn't say that correctly, but that's what I understood.

7:20 p.m.

Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG

Stanley Kutcher

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Yes, that's the case.

What I wrote down was that “advance requests are often made without full informed consent”. Perhaps when we get the transcript, I can ensure the clarity of what I have said so I didn't get it wrong. When a witness makes a comment like that, I think we need to have the data that the opinion is based on.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you very much.

We're not going to deviate from our plan tonight, but Dr. Cohen-Almagor, if you understood what we've just said and if you would be prepared to provide that information in writing to the committee, it would be very much appreciated.

We'll now go to Senator Dalphond.

Senator Dalphond, you now have the floor for three minutes.

May 5th, 2022 / 7:20 p.m.

Pierre Dalphond Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Dr. Cohen-Almagor.

I understand, Doctor, that you are opposed to advance requests out of concerns about potential abusers. That said, is there a way, if we put up a system here in Canada with a lot of safeguards, including an intermittent check before the administration of MAID and including that if the patient is showing some resistance, we won't proceed, that these safeguards will address some of your concerns or maybe all of your concerns?

7:20 p.m.

Professor of Politics, University of Hull, As an Individual

Dr. Raphael Cohen-Almagor

I want to clarify that I'm not opposed to advance directives for competent, autonomous patients; I'm opposed to advance directives when it comes to incompetent patients. As I said, I sat on the committee that legislated the Dying Patient Law—

7:20 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG

Pierre Dalphond

Doctor, I'm sorry to interrupt.

If you say that you're not opposed to advance requests when you're competent, what is the difference between asking for MAID at one point and asking for it in advance? You're talking about the same thing.

7:20 p.m.

Professor of Politics, University of Hull, As an Individual

Dr. Raphael Cohen-Almagor

I refer in my testimony to the issue of dementia particularly, because I know that it's an issue in Canada.

Just imagine the following. A person has been diagnosed with dementia. It's the starting of a process that can last years. At the start, he says that he would like to die in the later stages of dementia. Now the patient says he doesn't want to die.

Then we can discern a second stage, in which the dementia is advancing. Now five years have passed, and he again feels the advance directives. If you ask him if he wants to die now and he says no, he doesn't want to die now, but would like to die at a later stage, then there's no euthanasia for that patient. At the next phase, it's going to be too late, because then the patient is incompetent. Either you are going to kill the patient—

7:25 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG

Pierre Dalphond

That's not my question.

If the patient has dementia, he cannot ask for advance requests. It's too late. He cannot consent to it. However, if he was competent, why are you opposed that later on, when he reaches the stage he had indicated when he was competent, we follow the instructions?

7:25 p.m.

Professor of Politics, University of Hull, As an Individual

Dr. Raphael Cohen-Almagor

It's because maybe at that time he doesn't want to die anymore, and it happens quite a lot. Orders don't—

7:25 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG

Pierre Dalphond

So you'll go judge in that situation?

7:25 p.m.

Professor of Politics, University of Hull, As an Individual

Dr. Raphael Cohen-Almagor

You want to enforce the autonomy of the previous stage of the person, when the person actually changed. What I want to say is that we always change all the time. When we are competent, we change, let alone when we don't know or understand the brain enough to make a decision about the patient now when he is in advanced dementia.

I say all the time that at any stage, the issue of advance directives for dementia patients is morally problematic; therefore, this is where I draw the line. I've nothing against advance directives when it comes to competent, autonomous patients.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Doctor. We'll now go to Senator Wallin.

Go ahead, Senator Wallin.

7:25 p.m.

Pamela Wallin

Thank you very much.

I will address my questions to Senator Cowan and Ms. Long.

As you know, Senator Cowan, the Senate dealt with this issue and proposed an amendment, which was accepted overwhelmingly by the Senate, to deal with the very conundrum that you have to make an advance request if you know your disease or illness will render you incompetent. That is the whole core of the discussion around advance request for individuals with dementia.

How do we wrestle this? We have seen in the news in the last few days endless discussions around choice and a person's right to choose what will happen to their body. How can we ensure that, if we do not allow for advance requests? It's the only way we can ensure that that patient continues to have some say.

7:25 p.m.

Member of the Board of Directors and Former Senator, Dying with Dignity Canada

James S. Cowan

I absolutely agree, Senator Wallin. I think that's very reason we have it.

To add to the point that was made a little while ago about people changing their minds, when you passed Bill C-7 last year, there was a specific provision inserted in there. It was a form of advance request, with “Audrey's Amendment”. It specifically provided that if the individual showed any conscious indication of resistance or refusal, then MAID would not be administered. We would suggest that it's logical to have that safeguard in place if we proceed to adopt a more expansive role for advance requests. I agree.

7:25 p.m.

Pamela Wallin

Ms. Long, on the question of advance directives and advance requests, we do allow that anybody who goes in for surgery can sign a DNR, a “do not resuscitate”, and specify the circumstances. It seems to me that we're just trying to extend that very right that we give to a patient. They don't know what their state will be when they emerge from a risky surgery, so that is why they have signed the DNR.

Is this advance request not the ability to do the very same thing? We could sign it five years in advance and three years in advance and one year in advance. If you've indicated over your lifetime that you want to make those choices, would that not be a reasonable approach?

7:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Dying with Dignity Canada

Helen Long

I think it's a very similar approach. The difference is that in the end there's an assessment process for the MAID process and an eligibility requirement that is assessed by a clinician. I agree that certainly you could make it years in advance. It could be renewed upon occasion. It needs to reflect your values and beliefs and things that are not, I don't think, as relevant in the case of an advance directive.

I think there are certainly ways to get to safeguards. We heard from the assessors and providers who have been speaking that the work that's going into building a national curriculum for MAID assessors and providers will support the ability to put appropriate safeguards in place and adhere to them.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Ms. Long. Thank you, Senator.

We'll now go to Senator Martin.

7:30 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you, Mr. Co-Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses.

I have limited time, so my question will be to Dr. Cohen-Almagor.

There's a pretty surprising stat from Health Canada's 2020 report on MAID that notes that 35.9% of the individuals who received MAID listed being a “burden on family, friends or caregivers” when asked about the nature of their suffering.

If advance requests were permitted, do you expect that the percentage of people who are having MAID who are worried about being a burden would increase? Is that something that should concern us? Would you comment on that, please?

7:30 p.m.

Professor of Politics, University of Hull, As an Individual

Dr. Raphael Cohen-Almagor

Oregon was the first state in the United States to legislate end-of-life physician-assisted suicide. If you look at the Oregon reports, you see that one of the repeated drives for requests is the fear of becoming a burden on the family. People don't like it, and therefore they'd rather die. I think it's very unfortunate that this is the cause for death. That's my call for compassionate care, for palliative care and for helping people to not believe and feel that they are a burden on the family.

I'm not sure what the legislation is going to bring about, but I think all of us in this virtual room want to have an autonomous patient who is able to dictate the trajectory of life. When it is influenced by becoming a burden on the family, then of course autonomy is gone. We would like to retain the autonomy of the patient. That's my concern. That's why I'm here. I want to have a say for autonomy. I want all other factors to be at least addressed in a good and responsible fashion.

7:30 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you.

I think we've come to the end of this hour, Mr. Garneau.

If I may, I will take this opportunity to thank all of our witnesses for their testimony. Some follow-up was mentioned during the questioning, particularly from Senator Kutcher. That is something we will follow up on.

We'll take a moment now to prepare for the second panel. Thank you so much.

Dr. Cohen-Almagor, I know it's very late for you. Thank you so much.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you so much.

We'll suspend at this moment.

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Welcome to the second panel this evening.

We have the pleasure of having with us Dr. Melissa Andrew, professor of medicine in geriatrics at Dalhousie University and with the Nova Scotia Health Authority, as well as Mr. Michael Bach, managing director, Institute for Research and Development on Inclusion and Society.

We also have Dr. Georges L'Espérance, neurosurgeon and president of the Quebec Association for the Right to Die with Dignity, or AQDMD.

Welcome to you all.

We will begin with opening statements from each of you in the order in which I named you. You will have five minutes. That will be followed by a question period.

Please wait until I give you the sign to speak. Speak slowly and clearly. Try to stay within the time limits. You may speak in the official language of your choice, English or French; we have that translation capability.

If there is a problem, let me know. We'll interrupt proceedings until we can sort that out.

With that, I would like to invite Dr. Melissa Andrew to start us off with a five-minute opening statement.

7:35 p.m.

Dr. Melissa Andrew Professor of Medicine in Geriatrics, Dalhousie University, Nova Scotia Health Authority, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

I practise internal medicine and geriatrics, and most of my work is with older adults or people dealing with geriatric syndromes such as frailty and dementia. I often care for patients who are making important and potentially life-limiting decisions and regularly assess patients' capacity for decision-making in these contexts.

Thinking about our discussion today, it's useful to reflect on why people might seek MAID and why they would wish to use an advance request. People seek MAID because they have symptoms that, to them, cause or are anticipated to cause intolerable suffering as these symptoms progress. For most conditions, this does not inherently lead to loss of decision-making capacity except in defined situations, such as progression of brain tumours and delirium at end of life.

In the case of dementia, the loss of decision-making capacity is often inherent to the very symptoms a person might consider to be intolerable suffering. We could thus see a lack of provision for advance requests as something that impacts this vulnerable population in a somewhat discriminatory way because of the very symptoms of their condition. We should also recall that people living with dementia can currently be eligible for MAID, but it's just at a time that would be much earlier than they might otherwise choose if they had the comfort of knowing that an advance request could be valid.

What analogies are useful to how we can currently approach health care decision-making?

Of course, we currently do allow, and in fact encourage, people to make advanced directives to deal with life-and-death situations, including with reference to tricky conditions. We ask them and/or their substitute decision-makers to consider whether they would want resuscitation. We allow people to decline or withdraw treatments at any time in their illness journey from pre-diagnosis to late stage. These are sometimes called “hastening decisions” because they may hasten death, but in all these cases, clinicians enter into discussions with the patient and/or decision-makers to ensure that they're making an informed choice and that they meet the generally accepted threshold for capacity in these decisions. Assuming these criteria are met, the person's wishes regarding these decisions are respected.

Regarding the question of whether there is an ethical and legal difference between withholding and withdrawing care, which was mentioned earlier, this is, of course, debated by many ethicists and others. Carter v. Canada concluded that MAID was not different from other end-of-life decisions, so it behooves us to think about that in relation to this question about advance requests for MAID.

What are some concerns and counter-arguments about advance requests?

One counter-argument is that it would be too difficult to operationalize the exact definition of what the person has deemed to be “intolerable suffering”. There, of course, may be some grey areas. Indeed, our clinical work is often all about the grey areas. As an example, I've cared for patients whose degree of suffering was extremely clear to all involved; these people lived with complete torment that was not possible to relieve, despite intensive management attempts. It has been heartbreaking to hear from some families that the person's wishes were very clear: They would not want to live in such a state and had wanted to request MAID in advance, but were not able to.

Counter-arguments also bring up grey areas in interpretation. Is this the state the person meant? How do we word the advance request in way that allows for optimal clarity? For example, how would we operationalize a statement like, “Once I no longer remember my family, I want MAID”? What if their cognition fluctuates? Did they mean every family member, or just their closest ones? Is it about forgetting names or is it a complete lack of recognition? There are safeguards to address some of these concerns that have been proposed, such as templates and detailed wording, including consultations with appropriate stakeholders and possibly adjudication panels.

Clinicians may also worry about performing MAID if the prestated condition appears to be met, yet the person seems content in their current life. Again, even in those cases, safeguards could be implemented, as has been discussed earlier. People whom I've heard from who are living with dementia more often worry about distress and agitation rather than about simply memory loss when it gets right down to what really defines their suffering.

Another concern is of course the “current self versus future self” argument, which we heard earlier as well. Many cite evidence that people adapt well after conditions like spinal injuries once they have the lived experience. However, on the flip side, we risk not valuing the current and often long and strongly held values and beliefs that a person now has if we're telling them that their future wishes may change. Here stigma becomes the very relevant consideration. This may contribute to feelings of further marginalization and people living with an already stigmatizing condition.

Some worry that advance requests for MAID may be made with too much consideration of financial costs and one's burden on others. This of course leads to discussions about how we provide social supports and care for people living with progressive conditions that may impair their future decision-making and how we value their quality of life. The recent discussions of how we provide long-term care, which has been stressed beyond the breaking point by COVID, brings this issue to light. Clearly this is something that requires a systems fix, as well as careful ruling out of coercive factors if and when advance requests are considered.

In the bigger picture, it's also hard to extract this issue from the overall systems of dementia care that we have in Canada, which are suboptimal. We provide expensive care, but not necessarily good care, and we have underfunded dementia research. We treat people living with dementia in ways that do not further their overall well-being, such as lengthy stays in emergency rooms and in hospitals for behavioural expressions of dementia, which is pretty much exactly the wrong environment to help these people.