Evidence of meeting #7 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was maid.
A video is available from Parliament.
8 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
With respect to people being vulnerable to accessing MAID before having accessed other options, do you believe that is true as well for the disabled community as you've said it is true for racialized or Black Canadians?
8:05 p.m.
Sarah Jama
I believe it to be the same for disabled people. I think that disabled people are often experiencing medical ableism. We've had many people online talk about doctors who don't listen to them or who don't provide proper supports. We've had people who are afraid to enter a long-term care systems because they fear mistreatment in long-term care, too. That's been documented.
Many people are more vulnerable, particularly if they're disabled, to accessing MAID versus other treatments.
8:05 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin
Thank you, Ms. Jama.
Next we'll have five minutes from Mr. Maloney.
May 16th, 2022 / 8:05 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you, Madam Joint Chair.
I want to thank all three witnesses not only for being here tonight, but for displaying the patience that you have. We're starting very late tonight. As Ms. Jama said, time is of the essence. We need to dedicate ourselves to the issue at hand. Sometimes that is delayed by procedural—I will use the word— nonsense in the House of Commons and tonight was an example of that. You have my apologies on behalf of the committee.
My first question is for Mr. Adams.
Thank you, sir, for being here tonight. You indicated that you had applied for MAID and that you'd been approved.
Is that correct, sir?
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you.
Lived experiences are important for all of us on this committee for the reasons we've heard. I'm wondering if you would be willing to sort of take us through the process you went through after C‑14 and after C-7, so we have a better understanding of how it works.
Were you dealing with same group of medical practitioners on both occasions?
8:05 p.m.
As an Individual
The first time I tried to apply for MAID, the process was shut down fairly quickly. Initially, I had been considering applying under the interim court ruling that was there before the actual C‑14 bill was passed. As soon as it became clear that C‑14 was going to limit eligibility, I was basically told that it's just not going to go forward. I sort of stopped trying after that for awhile.
Bill C-7 then passed and I reached out to my local health authority. Through that coordination centre, I was put in touch with a doctor and went through the 90 days. That was quite a lengthy assessment. The consultation with the third party—the specialist—was very thorough. I did more tests than I had ever done before. This specialist has dealt with me for a number of years, so they know me, know my condition and know what I've tried.
I went through all of the other measures in the law and was found eligible. I waited some time and then I eventually got a second approval as well.
One of the doctors was part of my initial exploration of C‑14 and clearly had different conclusions for these two different bills.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you. I'm assuming those were based on the law. Those were legal conclusions, not medical conclusions.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
By the [Inaudible—Editor] under the first legislation.
8:05 p.m.
As an Individual
Essentially yes, I would say so. The full assessment didn't really happen on the first one. It was kind of just a meet and greet.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Do you feel you had a full hearing—if I can put it that way—and ample opportunity to discuss all of the implications and ramifications with your doctor and everybody who was involved in the decision-making process?
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Tell me a little bit more about this idea of self-exclusion. Can you put a little bit more detail into that for me? What time frame would you be looking at? How would that work exactly?
8:05 p.m.
As an Individual
I think it could be basically a form that a person brings to their doctor or to their health authority and chooses a set number years. I suppose you could put a cap on it if you wanted to. It could be maybe five years or so, up to a decade, depending on the needs of the individual and their level of comfort with MAID.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you.
I've only got a few seconds left, so I'm going to turn to Mr. Leblond.
You said you have some ideas on safeguards. We don't have time for you to set them out tonight, but would you be good enough, sir, to send us some information in writing, if that's possible?
8:10 p.m.
Former Deputy Minister, As an Individual
It would be my pleasure, but that would be very short because I do believe that you don't need extra safeguards for MAID for people who are physically disabled.
To believe that those people need extra safeguards means that because they are physically disabled, they are also, by definition, automatically intellectually disabled as well. That means you believe that because they have a physical impairment of some kind, they are not able to make decisions by themselves and for themselves.
8:10 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin
Thank you, Mr. Leblond.
Mr. Thériault, you have five minutes.
8:10 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to continue the conversation with you, Mr. Leblond.
Ultimately, you would find it discriminatory if you weren't given access to MAID. That's what I understand, since you advocated for Quebec to pass the Act respecting end‑of‑life care, as you said earlier.
Have I understood you correctly?
8:10 p.m.
Former Deputy Minister, As an Individual
Very well, yes.
As you say, it would be very discriminatory. If someone meets all the criteria established by the Supreme Court in Carter, I don't see why their request would be treated differently or a decision would be made differently because they have clubbed feet or are missing an arm. That would be discriminatory because it would put another barrier in the way of someone exercising their right to request MAID.
Why should these people, who already have a lot of difficulties in life, be subject to greater requirements than people with cancer who request medical assistance in dying? That would be completely discriminatory.
These people don't need to be protected. They are capable of defending themselves. If we respect their rights, if we respect them as human beings, they will be able to protect themselves. They do not need a good Samaritan to infantilize them or use them as pawns for other purposes. If their rights are respected, people with physical disabilities are able to make decisions by themselves and for themselves.
8:10 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
If the disability is individual, that is, specific to the individual, the disability is still social. It is essential that the person with any kind of disability be disabled as little as possible.
You mentioned earlier that people with physical disabilities are able to think and make decisions. An old philosopher, Paul Ricoeur, wrote a book in which he said that autonomy is not reduced to physical and social autonomy, for example the role one plays in society and the economic power one has. Autonomy in the full sense of the word is moral autonomy, that is, having the capacity to make practical judgments about oneself and to make free and informed decisions.
I imagine that you agree with Mr. Ricoeur's comments.
8:15 p.m.
Former Deputy Minister, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely. It's the very essence of a human being. It's the very essence of humanity. You have to be able to exercise your autonomy in a way that respects society. You have to be able to fully assume your autonomy, during life and at the time of death; there is no greater demonstration of what it means to be human.
8:15 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
You said that you've been in a wheelchair for 20 years. I imagine that you aren't yet at the point of wanting to exercise your right to MAID. That said, you must have been relieved to know that this option was available to you before you reached your tolerance threshold.