Evidence of meeting #6 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Senator, Ontario, ISG
My question was about you and your knowledge. You are aware of this. Is that correct?
Senator, Ontario, ISG
Okay. I'm just following up. You're aware that there are indigenous people and providers who believe that exclusion of MAID for mental illness alone is wrong, that they are being deprived of a service. Are you aware of that?
Professor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual
I'm not aware of it, but that makes sense. As you say, there are a lot of diverse opinions.
Senator, Ontario, ISG
I guess the final question I have is—and this is an easy day for you—have you done any specific direct research studying and consulting with any indigenous individuals who have wished to have MAID or with assessors or providers who provide the service? Have you done any population studies yourself? Is this an area of research that you yourself have intersected with?
Professor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual
No, it isn't. I've done work in the past in looking at suicide recovery among indigenous patients, but not specifically for MAID.
Senator, Ontario, ISG
Thank you.
That's the end of my questions. I cede my time.
Liberal
The Joint Chair Liberal Marcus Powlowski
Thank you, Senator Moodie.
Next is Senator Osler for three minutes.
Flordeliz (Gigi) Osler
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to both witnesses for being here today.
My question is for Mr. Belanger. It follows on the questions that Senator Dalphond asked about consultations with indigenous communities.
I take it from your testimony that the level of consultation with indigenous communities was not sufficient. My question is, what measures would you recommend to the Government of Canada so that meaningful consultation with indigenous communities on extending MAID to persons with mental illness as a sole underlying medical condition meets the standards set out in UNDRIP?
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
UNDRIP called for the total repeal of track 2 MAID, including mental illness as a sole underlying condition, so there are no recommendations that I would make to anybody, because if we are going to be consistent with our international obligations, it should be removed. We wouldn't have to have a conversation.
My recommendation is that we provide quality, adequate and timely services to persons with mental illness as the sole underlying condition and to persons, indigenous people, with disabilities. That's the only recommendation I can make. I can't make recommendations where irremediability is so divided among clinicians and say, “How do we make this more culturally appropriate and how do we make it fit for your community?” It wouldn't make sense to do that.
We need to act upon the recommendations of the UN. We need to repeal this, including mental illness as a sole underlying condition, and get people the support they need to thrive in their communities, without exception. There are multiple areas that have to be addressed. It's not just access to mental health services. It's housing. It's conditions of poverty. It's isolation.
It's all of those things that I'm saying are stacked up and stacked up.... No, there's nothing I would say that could make this...where I would say that I would want to see this be a reality.
Flordeliz (Gigi) Osler
Just so I'm clear, you're saying that there should be no further consultation at this point.
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
Well, I'm saying that I'm hoping this committee will make recommendations—based upon what the UN has said, based upon information from the last committee and based upon information we've heard here—that we'll honour the UN and our obligations to them and make recommendations to repeal track 2 MAID, including mental illness as a sole underlying condition.
I can't make recommendations on things in the future. We have to see what the recommendation from this committee is going to be and what we're going to do moving forward. Then I can make recommendations, but it will never be to euthanize individuals dealing with mental illness as a sole underlying condition or persons with disabilities when their basic needs aren't being met. Also, that shouldn't be, respectfully, anything that this committee should be endorsing.
We need to deal with the problems that are here today and the deficiencies within the systems. This is nothing new. This is a fight that we've been doing for years, as have other organizations. The reward for living a life of inadequacy and lack of access to services shouldn't be what people describe as a “dignified death”. We need to have dignified lives, where people get the support they need to thrive.
Liberal
The Joint Chair Liberal Marcus Powlowski
Thank you, Mr. Belanger.
Next is Senator Wells for three minutes.
Senator, Alberta, PSG
Thank you.
My question is for Dr. McCormick.
Could you clarify for me? I'm not sure I heard correctly when you did your introduction. Are you with Indigenous Disability Canada?
Professor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual
No. I'm a professor at Thompson Rivers University and a research chair.
Senator, Alberta, PSG
Thank you for clarifying that.
Maybe I'll go back to our witness.
I think you've already clarified some of this. Your position is that track 2 should be fully eliminated.
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
My position is that any law that targets a charter-protected group should not be on the books.
Senator, Alberta, PSG
Is your organization a plaintiff in the charter challenge to track 2 currently?
Senator, Alberta, PSG
Thank you.
Dr. McCormick, I think it's safe to say that everyone at this table agrees that every Canadian should be provided with adequate supports, whether they're financial or emotional, to help them deal with mental illness. However, a majority of the witnesses at this committee have made the false equivalency between requesting MAID and having suicidal ideation. Being approved for medically assisted death and having suicidal ideation are two different things.
Dr. McCormick, if somebody who has a mental illness is genuinely seeking MAID or additional information on the MAID process, how do you suggest suicide prevention frontline workers address these questions?
For the record, I want to point out that to receive a medically assisted death in Canada, a person has to be eligible under strict rules laid out under the law, and they have to go through a rigorous process by multiple medical professionals to be deemed eligible.
Professor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual
On the last part you said—and I don't have data in front of me—from what I've read, the safeguards just aren't there. Perhaps you can correct me, but my understanding is that people can choose whether they've exhausted the options for treatment. They can make their own decisions and can say, “No, I don't want any of the talking therapy, or this or that.”
I work in the field with trauma recovery. There are so many new options out there, like EMDR, psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy.... We're coming up with new approaches all the time.
Senator, Alberta, PSG
If somebody comes to your organization for suicide prevention and inquires about MAID, how do you suggest your frontline workers address these questions?
Professor, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual
My field is in counselling psychology. We would spend a lot of time talking to that person about different options. It would be a lengthy process. It varies, in terms of MAID assessors, as to how much time is spent finding out the person's story and what they have and haven't tried, what their resources are, and what their threats and protective factors are. There's so much that goes into working with someone who wants to die.
Liberal
The Joint Chair Liberal Marcus Powlowski
Senator, your three minutes are up. Thank you.
We will go to the second round of questioning, with Mr. Patzer for three minutes.