Evidence of meeting #6 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK
Thank you very much.
Before I begin, Mr. Chair, I want to highlight that I think it's completely inappropriate for Senator Wells to call people he disagrees with liars at this committee, when we have had—
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK
Yes, you did. You said that the majority of witnesses of this committee were lying in regard to suicidality—
Liberal
The Joint Chair Liberal Marcus Powlowski
Mr. Patzer is using up his three minutes as he pleases. He is on the clock.
Go ahead, Mr. Patzer.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will let my comments stand.
Mr. Belanger, in regard to your comments about the United Nations, has Canada formally responded to the recommendation you were alluding to?
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK
We've been hearing from witnesses about the Werther effect and suicide contagion. We have responsible reporting guidelines for media coverage of suicide, which people in the entire field of suicide prevention follow.
What is the contagion risk in indigenous communities, specifically when government legislation says death is a valid medical response to mental illness?
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
I think it's quite high.
I'll go back to my life working in the health sector and dealing with the suicide crisis we went through. We worked with four different nations, because they were experiencing similar things. One of the nations said that they were no longer going to have celebrations of life, because it highlighted the person's suicide. Youth and other people in the communities would do that because they saw it as a celebration—people getting together and recognizing that person—so they said they wouldn't do that anymore.
Track 1 and track 2 get intertwined all the time. The stuff you see online, where people say, “I was there, and I was drinking champagne and doing whatever,” is not the reality for most people and persons with disabilities living in poverty. However, it gives a message that this is a good escape, the way to go, and that this is some kind of justification that the end is somehow dignified after a life of wanting but not having supports. I don't think that's true, but I think it certainly influences them, to be sure.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK
Thank you for that.
We've now sat through about three years' worth of these committees.
What do you want this committee to put in its report so that, two years from now, we're not back at this table asking why more indigenous people with disabilities or mental illness have died because we expanded a system that we knew was broken?
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
I would hope the committee says, “We've taken a look at this, and we've looked at the law.”
It's targeting persons with disabilities and individuals with mental illness as a sole underlying condition. Look at the spring economic statement today and the lack of services and funding in that as well. If we have to make changes in Canada, we have to make sure we're supporting people with disabilities and individuals with mental illness as a sole underlying condition.
This is not a progressive move. It's not an equality right. It's ignoring our responsibilities to our most vulnerable. We're normalizing this. Once it becomes more normal, we will never get it back. We know government will come back and say, “Oh, let's make sure they're radically funding this,” because it has become an acceptable alternative to proactive, timely and adequate treatments, with supports and services. This is where we are today. We need to stop it, because if it keeps going forward, it's not going to stop. We've seen laws in the past that have been on the books for 50 years, wherein indigenous people were targeted and things happened. It took 50 years to get past it. Even then, after they came off the books.... We're dealing with them today. We shouldn't be in this situation. Take it back and give the support to people in need.
Liberal
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Welcome to both witnesses.
Mr. Belanger, I heard your answer to the previous question, and I agree with you that there are certainly a lot of things we can work on to improve people's daily lives. We can improve access to care and housing conditions, for example.
When someone requests medical assistance in dying, do they automatically get it?
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
I'm sorry. Do you mean, get MAID automatically?
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
Yes. If you ask for MAID, do you think you will automatically get it?
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
It depends on what track you're doing. Under track 2, there's a 90-day waiting period. During that time, there's an assessment period for the person, so they can think about it. Hopefully, they're getting programs and services or being recommended to different disciplinary supports, but that really doesn't happen. That's the thing. In my case, about the individual being approved for MAID but not even being referred to get their disability tax credit....
I don't think it happens immediately. In some cases, lines can be—
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
I'm sorry. I'm not talking about a span of time.
I'm asking you this: If someone asks for MAID, do you think they will get it?
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
Do you mean, if somebody requests MAID, do I think they'll get it automatically?
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
I would hope not. I don't think that happens.
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
No. If you walk in and ask for MAID, I don't think you will automatically get it.
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
Okay.
In that case, I'd like to hear what you have to say about the integrity of medical assessors who analyze a case and give their approval—or not—to a request for medical assistance in dying.
Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada
I'm not a clinician, in any sense. I would defer to the clinicians who spoke here, both those who are for it and those who are against it.
There's no consensus on it. If there's no consensus.... I'm not sure what percentage would be acceptable. Maybe 80% think it isn't irremediable. Is it 40%? What's the acceptable number of people who might be euthanized but who could have had a better life? For me, it's zero. Unless there's 100% agreement on this, we are running the risk of euthanizing people who could have led a good life. That's not a risk I would take, personally, because I know the damage it does to families and how everyone has to go through this.
I'm not debating the credibility of the clinicians, but the fact that they are so divided should give this committee pause, so that it says, “What are we talking about? There's no consensus here, so how can we push forward or expand a law on something nobody can agree on?” It's not like—