Evidence of meeting #28 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was arctic.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nils Wang  Royal Danish Navy
Marc St-Onge  Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
David Boerner  Director General, Central and Northern Canada Branch, Geological Survey of Canada, Department of Natural Resources

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Hello, everyone. Welcome to meeting 28 of the Standing Committee on National Defence. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by this committee on Monday, February 23, 2009, we will continue our study on Arctic sovereignty.

We have the pleasure of having with us, by video conference from Denmark, Rear Admiral Nils Wang of the Royal Danish Navy.

We are ready to hear from you, Mr. Wang. Thank you for being with us at this time in your country. You have seven to eight minutes. After that, the members of this committee will ask you questions.

Perhaps you can start.

Thank you for being with us.

11 a.m.

Rear-Admiral Nils Wang Royal Danish Navy

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It's a big privilege and a big honour for me to be called in as a witness before your committee. I have prepared a little lead-in of five to seven minutes, as asked for. And thereafter, I would be delighted to answer any questions you may have.

I suspect that you can hear me clearly and that there is a good connection between us.

As you are frightfully aware, the Arctic ice cap is melting fast these years. There are many opinions of how fast, but seen from my chair, which is predominantly an operational chair, I would like to add that at this early stage the consequences are already beginning to emerge.

In August last year, the first Danish merchant ship transited through the Northwest Passage on a commercial journey from Japan to St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada, using the mythical waterway and saved 15 days at sea, compared with the traditional southerly route through the Suez Canal.

One of the major Danish shipping lines announced publicly last year that it had started the construction of a series of ships with icebreaking capacity. In other words, the shipping line seriously believes that sea transport through the Arctic will be a lucrative option within the 10- to 15-year lifespan of a merchant ship.

I am sure that a 40% reduction in the distance between Europe and Asia and a 25% reduction of the distance between the United States and the Far East will be an extremely tempting cost saver for the shipping industry in general. When the investment required to do it is in balance with the economical outcome, I think it will just happen.

And as in every other aspect of life, changes will create new challenges. I am not able to overlook--and I don't think anyone is--the security implications of a complete rerouting of sea transportation, but I am convinced that it will have great and far-reaching implications.

If you look at all the commercial activities related to the big sea lines of communication, such as maritime infrastructure and man-made shortcuts like the Suez and the Panama canals, a significant change in the sea routes will also have significant global economical and security implications, if you ask me.

But changes normally also create new opportunities. Ironically, a 40% distance reduction would also mean a 40% fuel reduction and a 40% carbon emissions reduction from ships between Europe and Asia. Think about it--one of the more helpful factors in our common striving to reduce carbon emissions could be the meltdown of the polar ice cap.

Receding ice will also make way for serious exploitation of oil and gas resources. Some estimates indicate that the Arctic could hold the last great undiscovered hydrocarbon resources on earth, maybe as much as 25%. This will also create increased maritime activities in the Arctic, but it could also lead to a race for resources, with serious implications for security policy and, not least, for the environment. We might see territorial claims or conflicting interests, some of which have already surfaced.

Seen from my operational perspective, the only way to meet the challenges of this increased maritime activity in the Arctic is through cooperation. Consequently, it must be of common interest that territorial claims, disputes over access to resources, or other conflicts of interests are managed and settled in an orderly fashion within the international legal framework. We must avoid conflicts or disputes about resources or land or sea territory. We do not want conflicting interests to obstruct the close local cooperation needed to address the many challenges that none of us can face or handle alone.

In May 2008, the five nations bordering the Arctic Ocean--Canada, Denmark, Norway, Russia, and the United States of America--met in a small Greenlandic city called Ilulissat. I believe this meeting will turn out to be an important event in the new Arctic history. The five nations agreed on what is now known as the Ilulissat Declaration. In essence, the five countries agreed to take the good with the bad--to work together on both the challenges and the possibilities. The countries agreed to settle the territorial claims in accordance with the international legal framework. They agreed to live up to their common responsibilities for the protection of the Arctic and to cooperate in areas such as search and rescue and protection of the environment.

I believe the future might arrive a little earlier than expected. Quite apart from the more worldwide security implications of the melting ice cap, within a decade or so we are likely to see a massive increase in traffic volume in the Arctic. Human and economic activity in the area will increase, and if we do not get it right, we are likely to see a race for resources. Together with the rerouting of shipping lanes, that will present some serious safety, environmental, and security challenges for all of us.

The polar area in this new perspective holds the potential to change the geostrategic dynamics, and that will affect military planning, not only in the five states bordering the polar sea. Seen from my operational chair, we will need naval and coast guard presence in the area. We will need to survey the area to create reliable sea charts, just to mention one important aspect of maritime traffic. We will need to establish maritime traffic management to ensure safe navigation, create effective search and rescue capabilities, and control fishing and hydrocarbon resources. We will need to establish environmental response capability to ensure protection and preservation of the fragile marine environment in the Arctic Ocean. Most importantly, we will need to do all this in cooperation with each other.

On that note, I'll conclude my short address. Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much, Mr. Wang.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Wilfert.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Bagnell.

Admiral, it's nice to see you again. You presented in Tokyo last June.

I promise I won't bring up Hans Island with you, but I want to follow up on your issue about cooperation. What do you see as the best vehicles to date to enhance international cooperation, particularly because Canada and Denmark have issues about the shelf versus the Russians?

How do you see international instruments, whether they're through military cooperation or diplomacy, able to enhance the benefits you've mentioned of the Arctic?

11:10 a.m.

RAdm Nils Wang

Thank you very much.

I'm happy to see you again. I will try to answer your very good question. As I also mentioned when I talked in Tokyo, the last time we met, I think that as politicians and lawmakers you have an enormous responsibility to create the environment and the stability in which we professionals can actually work.

If I, for example, have to cooperate with Canadian, American, Russian, and Norwegian coast guards—just to mention some of the organizations that are needed on the operational side of the house—we have to have politicians from each and every one of our countries talking to each other in a decent language, if you catch my drift. I think the first prerequisite to establishing an operational collaboration between the five states up there is that the politicians act towards each other the way they agreed to in the Ilulissat Declaration, because then it's much easier for us to meet and greet and agree on how we then deal with the operational and practical challenges that we face.

What I'm saying here is that it is much more difficult for us to cooperate if the political rhetoric is about setting flags, whether on the seabed or on different islands. I will mention Hans Island at this time. I think Hans Island is a good example of how two countries can agree to disagree on a border dispute and then let the political tools and frameworks work on a scientific basis to find out what is right and what is wrong. In the meantime, Canada and Denmark can actually start to talk together about how to create a joint rescue organization or how to pool their resources in order to cooperate up there.

A couple of years ago a new organization was established, the North Atlantic Coast Guard Forum, which consists of 20 countries that are situated on the rim of the North Atlantic, as the name suggests. I think that is the only professional network—at least that I know of—that has all five polar nations as members. This gives us an opportunity to use that framework to start to discuss how we can deal with all the problems that we'll face in the future. At least we can start from there. My point here, to make it short, is that you need a decent political rhetoric in order to have civil servants such as me cooperate together.

I don't know if that answered your question.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I appreciate the answer. Again, I'm delighted that you're able to join us.

I'm going to split my time, Mr. Chair, with Mr. Bagnell.

Admiral Wang, I look forward to seeing you in the future.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you.

I probably have just one question. Around 2006, I think, our foreign minister and I met with your foreign minister and the Premier of Greenland at the United Nations. We agreed, in terms of Hans Island, that we would send the bureaucracies back to do in-depth study of the history and the science as a way of resolving that dispute. I'm wondering if you could give us an update now, four years or five years later, as to where we are in that study process.

11:15 a.m.

RAdm Nils Wang

I don't think I'm actually fully updated on that. The last thing I heard about Hans Island is that we agree on disagreeing and that this is a question for the subgroups, or whatever, in the United Nations.

In the meantime, I know there is joint scientific research going on on Hans Island, with scientists from both Canada and Denmark. I think it is on track, basically according to the lines you just mentioned, that science will eventually come up with a suggestion on how this dispute should be settled. In the meantime, at least from the navy's perspective in Denmark, we have been told by our foreign ministry not to go up there and put flags on the island anymore. At least that may be a sign that this is on track, as you mentioned.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Following up on Bryon Wilfert's question, one small section of it, could you give us any more details on how we're cooperating on the joint mapping of the seabed related to UNCLOS, just any more technical details on how that's going?

11:15 a.m.

RAdm Nils Wang

I'm not able to go into much detail about it, but I know that a lot of scientific work goes on right now in order to map the continental shelf both in northern Greenland and, I suspect, also in the other polar nations. As far as I know, we are due to put in those scientific results at different times, because you have to deliver the results no later than 10 years after you have ratified the UNCLOS.

So for Denmark's part, that will be in 2014, I think, and I think Norway delivered its results in 2006. It remains to be seen if the United States will ratify, and then they will also have 10 years to collect their data. I can't remember when Canada is due. But I think the process is going on. At least I know that our soldiers in the northern part of Greenland are supporting various scientific expeditions or measurements in order to clarify the seabed data.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much.

Now I will give the floor to Monsieur Bachand.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Rear-Admiral Wang, for being with us today. For your information, I believe Canada is supposed to be tabling its study by 2013.

My first question has to do with the North-West passage, which you mentioned in your presentation. What is Denmark's position in the North-West passage?

As you know, in Canada's opinion, these are domestic waters, over which it has full jurisdiction. Our American friends, on the other hand, think this is an international waterway. Does Denmark have a position on the North-West passage?

11:15 a.m.

RAdm Nils Wang

I don't know if anyone in Denmark has an official view on that, but I definitely do not have one. I think it will be very wise to stay away from that dispute and let Canada and the United States settle that by themselves, because the Northwest Passage as such is, of course, not a strait that is close to Greenland in any territorial or seabed dispute kind of way.

I think the Danish merchant ship that travelled through the Northwest Passage, which I mentioned in my intro, was following the pilot's rules, because as I remember it, the ship was hired by a Canadian company to put down cables on the seabed when it came to St. John's. So I think it was due to Canadian rules for these waters that the merchant ship transited through the area.

I don't think Denmark has any official view on how this dispute is going to be settled, so I will not dare to even go there.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

My next question is about your neighbour, Russia. I would like to know whether Denmark has any cooperation agreements with Russia. I would also like to know what you think about its behaviour at the moment. As you know, it is the only circumpolar country that is not a member of NATO. The other four countries are NATO members.

Can you tell us whether the Russians are behaving properly, or whether they are somewhat more aggressive? For example, do they respect your air space, and the 200-mile limit? How would you describe their behaviour at the moment?

11:20 a.m.

RAdm Nils Wang

Being a military man, I will try to answer your question in a non-political way. It's not up to me to judge whether Russian behaviour towards the Kingdom of Denmark is acceptable or not.

I have noted, because I have a personal interest in what's going on in the Arctic, that the Russians are coming with different statements. Maybe the reason is that they know very well that they are the only one of the five bordering countries that is not part of NATO and that is why they feel squeezed. I don't know. I also noted, actually yesterday, that the Russian ambassador in Copenhagen wrote a letter in one of the national newspapers saying that Russia would follow international rules concerning the Arctic and that they would adhere to what was agreed on the Ilulissat Declaration. The essence of the ambassador's letter was basically that Russia would follow international rules concerning all the ongoing discussions about the Arctic.

Concerning airspace and the 200 nautical mile waters, I'm not aware that Russia has violated our airspace in Greenland, at least for many, many years. I also am quite sure that every time they enter Danish waters they follow the rules for announcing their presence. If they go into our national waters and if they are doing scientific investigations on the economical zone, they are also doing the proper procedure. We don't have, let's say, concrete examples, at least not to my knowledge, that Russia is violating our sovereignty in Greenland. Of course, we also have a long historical neighbourship with Russia back in the southern part of the kingdom, in the Baltic. We have a fairly good cooperation with Russia there right now.

I must answer your question by saying that there's nothing to report on that matter.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

I come now to my last question. Do you think NATO will have a role to play in the Arctic in the future? We just mentioned that four countries belong to NATO, but not Russia. Discussions are getting underway at the moment at NATO regarding the opening up of the North-West passage and the importance of the Arctic.

As a member of the forces and an admiral, do you think NATO could some day play a role in the Arctic?

11:20 a.m.

RAdm Nils Wang

I think that depends on the timeline of your question.

If the development goes as I predicted it in my intro, that in some years--whether that is 10 or 20 years--you would see more and more commercial traffic in the Arctic region, that means that you can either go there in parts of the year with ordinary commercial traffic or you can go there with ordinary warships. Therefore, if the Arctic is developing into a new high-tension security area due to resources or whatever, I think NATO, if it exists in 20 years, will have the same role as NATO has in other kinds of security tension areas or hot spots in the world. In that respect, I see NATO, if it continues to exist, as having a role globally in all hot spots and therefore also in the Arctic hot spot. So if commercial traffic is able to go up there, I think normal navy ships would also be able to go there, at least seasonally, or maybe in parts of the area.

I think NATO, the EU, and the UN, for that matter, will play a role in this hot spot, as they do in every other hot spot in the world. Maybe you could even foresee a situation where some of the present and actual hot spots will cool down, so that they will actually move to a new area.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much, Mr. Wang.

Now I will give the floor to Monsieur Harris.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Admiral Wang, for joining us today.

I have a couple of questions. You mentioned twice in your introduction the fact that if we end up with new sea routes in the north, this would provide security challenges for all of us. I wonder if you could elaborate somewhat on what these challenges are and what your country, Denmark, is doing in terms of planning to seek to address them.

11:25 a.m.

RAdm Nils Wang

First of all, my concern about security problems was first and foremost related to the resource question. I think the shipping issue is more of an economic issue, where you actually will have new commercial infrastructure related to the sea routes.

Of course, if you have important sea routes through narrow straits, as historically seen, that will often create some kind of tension, because the narrow straits will suddenly become strategic important choke points. In that respect, you could argue that a rerouting of the shipping lines, if you see it all the way through, will create new choke points and thereby will also create a new security dynamic. It does not necessarily have to be negative.

I don't know if it's too easy to say that the world has a constant security potential, and if you remove one hot spot a new one will emerge somewhere, but that is definitely a very simple way of looking at it. If the Suez Canal and the Panama Canal, for example, are losing their importance because the majority of the shipping will go another way, that potential may move to another area.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Is this an issue for Denmark as well, or do you see this, because of the Northwest Passage, as probably more of an issue for Canada in terms of an increased military presence?

11:25 a.m.

RAdm Nils Wang

Of course, the logic that follows from my statement will definitely indicate that a strait like the Northwest Passage will become a new choke point if that development actually is going as I have predicted.

Also, the traffic routes that lead up to that area will give other parts of the area and adjacent areas a new role, although not necessarily a security policy high-tension role. Imagine a country like Iceland, which could be a new mega-hub for traffic and which could reload containers from normal traffic to icebreaking ships and then go all the way up. It's the whole infrastructure that follows sea routes. I think if you started to study which infrastructure is related to the big sea lines of communication today, you would see that a huge amount of money is invested in that infrastructure. If that is going to be redirected to an area that has almost no infrastructure at all, it must, I think, create some kind of new situation that can also have security implications.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I have one further question. In terms of Danish naval assets, do you have now or are you planning changes in the ice capability of your vessels?

11:30 a.m.

RAdm Nils Wang

We have four Arctic patrol frigates that we now have had for the last 15 or 17 years. Then we have three very, very small cutters that are now being replaced by a modern ocean patrol vessel. Also, because the old ones were so old, they had to be replaced anyway. So that is basically what we are doing. We are renewing three old ships with three new ships that also have a helicopter capability, and that is basically our way of addressing this development on the sea side.

But of course you cannot invest in ships that can cover an area like we are talking about. We are talking about 200 nautical miles, and in a resources way, it is 300 miles around Greenland. It is such a huge area, so you cannot invest in ships in order to cover that. You need other surveillance means in order to overlook the area, in order to identify where to put your active measures as ships.

At present, the politicians in Denmark are struggling to agree on the next five-year defence agreement, and as it looks now, it might result in a third ocean patrol vessel in order to renew the three old ones.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

I have just one question, and it was a question that my colleague Mr. Bachand had asked about the Russian air traffic.

Canada, of course, participates with the United States in NORAD for an early warning and response system. What does Denmark do in terms of air space, particularly looking towards the Arctic and the north?