National Defence Committee on Oct. 8th, 2009

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Into the allegations of rape of children by--

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

There was a board of inquiry, and a national investigation service inquiry has taken place with respect to these matters, yes.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That concluded they found no evidence.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

That's correct.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Certain documents have come to light, which you've seen in the newspapers. I've seen them recently. As a result of that information coming forth, is your department taking any steps to deal with that issue?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

If there is new information that comes forward, then steps would be taken.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

With respect to the 2011 deadline, the combat role will end.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Correct.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The resolution of the House actually reads that our mission in Kandahar would come to an end in 2011. Can you tell us what would happen in Kandahar vis-à-vis our mission in 2011?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Well, it will respect the motion that has been passed by the House of Commons.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I understood your remarks earlier, made in another context, to say something might be left behind; some troops might be left behind. That would fly in the face of the spirit and the text of the resolution. I want to give you an opportunity to clarify your remarks.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I don't need to clarify my remarks. The combat mission will end in the year 2011.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

It said the mission will end.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

We will respect the parliamentary motion. We can't be in Afghanistan fighting to protect and promote their democracy and not respect our own in this country. What that means, in my view, is that we will, in the spirit of the parliamentary motion, shift to more development, more reconstruction within that country.

That involves things, as you know, sir, such as training, such as helping the Afghan people enhance their own security, which Canadians are very good at. That involves a number of departments, including the Department of Public Safety. So we have police officers—municipal as well as the RCMP—there currently, training Afghans. We have the ability to enhance their own governance model. We're working with, certainly, CIDA, the development agency, to see all of these projects and signature projects move forward, and will continue to do so in that spirit.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Anita or Bryon, do you want to take the two minutes I have left?

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Minister, counter-insurgency strategy requires a strong, stable partner. Comments made by U.S. General McChrystal indicated that, obviously, we really have to win the hearts and minds of the Afghans. Given the increased attacks, particularly where Canadian soldiers are facing increased boldness by the Taliban, what is the assessment in terms of being able to respond? To have a strong and stable partner, with the cloud hanging over the Afghan government because of the elections, how do we move forward in an effective way in responding to that?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

That's a very good question, Mr. Wilfert.

Obviously we are continuing in the vein that we have thus far, which is to try to partner very much with local authorities, with the local Afghan army and police in terms of enhancing their security capacity-building. We're also working on these projects through CIDA and the Department of Foreign Affairs to work directly with villages, village elders, to identify projects that are of a priority in nature, whether it's water, energy, a school, or a hospital. That type of village approach is the one that I spoke of in my opening remarks, and it is very much aimed at the classic hearts and minds; that is to say, we want to empower Afghans to do more for themselves.

We are there at their invitation. We are there with the backing of the international community. There are over 60 countries involved in the Afghanistan mission. There's the Afghanistan pact that was signed in England at the very beginning of this particular mission, as you're aware.

We're continuing to evolve. We're continuing to work with Afghans to see that they're the ones who are doing the majority of the work, because we intend to leave. The exit strategy is obviously to empower them to do many of the things we're doing on their behalf and to work with them to achieve those goals. We'll continue to do that.

We're waiting with great interest, as I'm sure many are, to see how President Obama and his administration will respond to recommendations from ISAF Commander Stanley McChrystal. That administration is going to make a decision, I suspect, very soon as to whether there will be a surge of anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 more troops, in addition to further civilian support for the Afghan mission.

This is our biggest international obligation, as you know. This is a mission we've committed to in a whole-of-government fashion. We're there until 2011 in the current configuration, and we will be there post-2011 with a much different configuration.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the minister for joining us. I would also like to thank his colleagues who work very hard. I'd like to talk about something other than Afghanistan and prisoners.

I am pleased that you briefly mentioned military contracts and their importance to Canadian taxpayers. I'd like you to reassure us a bit more, because many taxpayers and military companies are critical of the fact that DND looks to outside suppliers far more often than it does to domestic ones. I don't have to tell you that these contracts are paid for with taxpayer dollars. Let me give you two examples.

Let me just clarify that we intend to put our three or four questions, and then give you the opportunity to respond. I believe Mr. Bouchard has a question as well.

Our first question pertains to Leopard 2 tanks. At this point in time, all of the tanks in service in Europe are repaired by two German companies, Krauss-Maffei and Rheinmetall. Meanwhile, 50 of the tanks are standing idle in Montreal. As I see it, this is one example of Canadian taxpayer dollars helping to create jobs in Europe, but not in Canada and even less so in Quebec. The tanks are being stored at 202 Workshop Depot in Montreal. This unit could repair them just as easily as Rheinmetall in Saint-Jean. We would like you to reassure us. We've heard that of the $650 million allocated for upgrading the Leopard tanks, $500 million has already been spent in Europe and that very little would be left for Quebec and Canada. This is the first example of taxpayers not getting their money's worth from a military contract.

Another issue is boots. Major Coghill requested some modifications to camouflage boots. He contacted industry officials and asked them to produce some sample boots. Ultimately, he reported that there was talk of him having to go through the Government Electronic Tendering Service in November, but that he changed his mind. I think the decision has now been made to order black boots and to start the process over. All of this leads us to wonder if Canadian taxpayers are receiving value for their money.

My second question concerns the Collège militaire royal in Saint-Jean. I want to thank you for re-opening this institution. I see that General Semianiw is smiling, and with good reason. We are extremely pleased with this decision. Now we want you to move on to the second phase. You have reopened the collège, but it does not enjoy the same status as it did in 2005 when it was first closed. It has been reopened as a college rather than a university, and has been given an operating budget of about $12 million, instead of $25 million as was the case in the past.

Are you planning on waiting until the election campaign to announce the second phase, or are you prepared to make me and General Semianiw happy and announce the second phase of this initiative immediately? That would make all of us happy.

Finally, I will let Mr. Bouchard put his question about the Chinook helicopters. Then we will ask you to answer our questions.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for giving me the floor.

I would also like to thank the minister and his associates for coming here today. I'm truly pleased and privileged to speak to such an illustrious and competent group of individuals.

Yesterday, Sir, the Minister of National Revenue announced that none of the 15 Chinook helicopters purchased by the government would be based in Bagotville. The minister presented a number of arguments in defence of the announcement, specifically, that it would cost an additional $100 million to put in place the required infrastructure in Bagotville, that this was an air base and that there was no training area at the base. He went on to add that three bases had been considered.

Through access to information, we obtained a document dated June 3, 2008 in which the location of the Chinook helicopters was discussed. According to the document, Bagotville was the least costly option, when compared to Petawawa. The report did recommend that all Chinook helicopters be based in Petawawa and that four squadrons in Canada be shut down, among them 438 Squadron in Saint-Hubert and 439 Squadron in Bagotville, and that Griffon helicopter maintenance personnel be transferred to the newly created unit.

Minister, as suggested in the June 3, 2008 report, have you decided to shut down, or have you contemplated the possibility of shutting down, four squadrons, including 438 and 439 squadrons and transferring personnel to the new Chinook unit?

Furthermore, Minister, regarding the statement by the Minister of National Revenue in which reference was made to three bases, I would like to know if these are the same three bases mentioned in the June 3, 2008 report, namely Bagotville, Edmonton and Petawawa.

Lastly, why was Bagotville the focus of a study, if, as an air base, it is truly not suitable as a base for the Chinook helicopters?

Thank you.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for your question.

First of all, there are no plans in place to transfer the Griffons to Bagotville or to any other base. There are no plans in place to shut down squadrons or close bases. Absolutely not.

As for where the Chinook helicopters will be based, a decision has yet to be made. You're correct in that a study has been done to consider the financial and operational implications, but for now, we're waiting until we have more information before making a final decision.

You mentioned the reference to the regional minister and his suggestion that the base was not going to be Bagotville for the Chinooks. That may very well be, but as I said, there's no final decision. Some of the considerations he said publicly are absolutely the types of considerations we are undertaking: the existing infrastructure, the training capability, the proximity to the numbers of troops we would move. Let's not forget that a Chinook helicopter is a large aircraft for transporting heavy equipment and troops. Therefore, the location of this particular fleet of new Chinook helicopters takes into account the size of the country and the types of bases that exist in the country right now. We're getting very close to making that decision.

I might at this time ask Lieutenant-General Deschamps to comment on this as well. He is Chief of the Air Staff.

Général.

[LGen J.P.A. Deschamps, Chief of the Air Staff, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Bouchard, as the minister stated, in order be efficient, we must look at troop requirements and take into account access to training areas. Many factors must be considered, including transit times and costs.

There is also a phenomenon known as “acculturation“...

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I have a point of order.

I want to listen to what General Deschamps has to say in response to Mr. Bouchard's question. That said, could we reserve comments for the second part of the meeting, since he's planning on staying? I'd like the minister to answer three other questions before my time is up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Yes, certainly.

Just so you know, the minister has 45 more minutes to answer your questions.

Minister, I don't know if you want to add something on the question concerning other subjects. You have 40 seconds.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I have every intention of coming back to these questions. I know we have boots, Bagotville, the issue of the Leopard tanks, and CMR. We have the Chief of the Air Staff here. It's a very specific question with respect to the basing of Chinook helicopters.

With respect to the boots, I'm told there was a single bid that came in that was very expensive.

We have not yet come to a decision regarding the contract.

I understand that you, like many members of Parliament, want to lobby for a particular company for the National Defence department to purchase boots from. As you mentioned yourself, we have to be responsible to taxpayers to make sure that we're getting the boots. I understand we have about 17 different types of boots available to the Canadian Forces right now in various colours, sizes, and shapes. We try to put the comfort of the soldiers first and foremost. We seek feedback from them regularly. We have an open and transparent bidding process that is followed when it comes to these contracts.

On the subject of Collège militaire royal, we are examining options. As you quite rightly pointed out, it was this government that reopened

the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean, in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu. It's a wonderful decision. Many people, like all of you here, are very pleased. I remember when it happened. This college is really very important to the Canadian Forces and to all cadets. It offers a marvellous program. However, no decision has been made yet on whether or not to increase the number of programs offered. That remains a possibility.

You walk before you run. We've reopened this formidable storied institution. We intend to monitor enrollment and programming. It has a great deal to do with the numbers that we're receiving into the Canadian Forces and the necessity for certain program needs, trades, and education.

In my opinion, the future looks very bright for the Collège militaire royal. The institution's future is critical to our Canadian Forces.

There are actually 40 tanks in Montreal, not 50. It was part of a larger purchase of 100 that was meant to replace the aging Leopard 1 tanks and put a larger, more capable, more protective vehicle into the theatre of operation.

I can tell you unequivocally that the tanks we have in theatre right now, the Leopard 2s, have saved lives. As you know, the insidious nature of insurgency warfare is that they're making the bombs bigger. They're changing their tactics. This is the most protective piece of equipment short of a helicopter that is flying above the ground. Those tanks are the best piece of kit that we have on the ground in Afghanistan today.

We entered into an expedited process to receive those tanks early, and with cooperation we were able to accelerate that purchase. Also with cooperation, an add-on to the contract was that Germany provided us with an advance copy of 20 tanks, which we are now required to replace from the pool of 100 that we purchased.

We needed to upgrade some of the tanks in Europe because we needed them in the theatre. To put them on a ship and bring them back to Montreal to upgrade them and then send them back into Afghanistan didn't make operational sense. They wouldn't have arrived before the wrap-up of the combat mission in 2011. So that was the operational decision that was taken.

With respect to proceeding on the upgrade of the tanks that we currently have in Europe, we went back to the original manufacturer of these tanks to do the necessary upgrades to the guns, the under armour, and I believe the strap-on arming as part of that contract.

We have every intention of proceeding with the upgrade of the 40 tanks that are in Montreal for training purposes. I believe we have a small number that have already entered into some reconstruction that we're doing on our own, but we hope to also proceed with the further upgrade of those tanks in Montreal.

I understand you're concerned about the time, but I'll ask Dan to very briefly add a few more points.