Evidence of meeting #43 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Walter Natynczyk  Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence
William F. Pentney  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
W. Semianiw  Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence
Robert Fonberg  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Dan Ross  Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence
Kevin Lindsey  Assistant Deputy Minister, Finance and Corporate Services, Department of National Defence

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Payne.

I'd like to start off by saying that I can confirm that the purchases on behalf of the military are greatly appreciated by the soldiers on the ground. At the Petawawa base I had the benefit of speaking first-hand to soldiers and asking them whether they're getting the equipment they need, and they confirmed that they are.

With respect to the tempo, many of them are eager to get back to the next rotation in Afghanistan. There are giant strides in achievements being made there, and they see how they help from one rotation to the next.

The only concern had to do with how the dependants are being treated and with making sure they have everything they need. Together with General Semianiw, we now have another person on board who is a military spouse herself, and she's helping the dependants throughout the country. Her name is Leslie Natynczyk. It's great work that she's doing, and I can tell you that our dependants at the Petawawa base greatly appreciate her work.

I have two questions. The first has to do with the students' payments. You made reference, Minister, to a way that people joining the military could have part of their tuition paid. That is the first question.

The second question has to do with the new Chinooks coming on board. Do the troops require time on how to interact with this type of chopper for operational purposes, bearing in mind that there has to be the proper funding allocation for that?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Thank you, Ms. Gallant. I thank you as well for the long affiliation you've had with CFB Petawawa and the work that I know you've personally undertaken with respect to military families.

I would agree with you that the Canadian Forces have come a long way in the last number of years in efforts made to, shall we say, embrace military families in a more substantive way through programming and recognition at the bases for the need to invest in such things as child care, education in the broad sense, and support for families while soldiers are deployed. This has been a priority of the Chief of the Defence Staff. It has been a priority of the senior leadership of the Canadian Forces. Certainly General Walt Semianiw, who is here with us, bears both the responsibility and much of the credit for those advances.

You also mentioned--and I know the general will forgive me--Leslie Natynczyk. She has now taken on responsibilities, many of them voluntary, with respect to further advances in assisting both military families and those who are returning from deployment with deployment-related injuries, whether psychological or physical. She has taken a specific interest in programs such as the Soldier On program. Such programs are designed to assist those suffering deployment-related injuries and to assist as well in the family-related matters that you mentioned.

We are very much making this a priority in the Canadian Forces. This is very symptomatic of a modern military, a military that recognizes broader responsibilities that go beyond equipment and infrastructure. These concerns are very personal for the members of the Canadian Forces, because they impact directly on their family and their future. I am very proud of the advances that are currently taking place and that have already taken place. Again, it's an example of their professionalism and of the appreciation and affection that Canadians feel for their men and women in uniform.

To come back to the question of scholarships or support for young Canadians who wish to embark on a career with the Canadian Forces, money is available when it comes to education. Whether you're entering the Canadian Forces as a reservist or as a member of the regular force, there are education bursaries, and Royal Military College in Kingston, one of the finest education facilities in Canada, has scholarships to offer. At high school graduations I attended last spring, a number of young Canadians, including some from my riding in Central Nova, were given significant--we're talking tens of thousands of dollars--scholarships for entering the Royal Military College and other university programs that can lead to a career within the military.

Much of that information is available on the Canadian Forces website, and we have individuals now who are going to campuses and community colleges and universities around the country to make that information available.

I'll come back to your last question, Ms. Gallant, about the helicopters. We have purchased used helicopters with heavy lift and medium lift capability, for lack of a better term. They are in good condition and were maintained by the American forces. These Chinook helicopters were made available to us on an urgent basis so that we could get that capability into Afghanistan immediately, and we purchased them. They're there now. We're back in the business of that type of helicopter and have the previous capability that we had going back some years. We have also contracted to purchase 15 new “F” models, a modern version of the same helicopter that will serve us well into the future.

Mr. Bouchard has asked some questions about where they'll be based. The new helicopters that we purchased are piloted by Canadians. It took some time, of course, for the pilots to familiarize themselves with flying that type of aircraft. Some modifications, I believe minor ones, were made.

In order to have that capability, we had to invest. These are not unsophisticated machines. They are not available at your local Canadian Tire. They had to be modernized somewhat for our purposes. I'm not going to single out any other country, but Canada has a very high standard when it comes to maintenance and mechanics. We have people in the Canadian Forces today who are nothing short of magic. Imagine keeping a 45-year-old Sea King helicopter operable and available for missions. The same can be said of the Buffalo and of some of the aging Hercules aircraft that we use on the west coast. Those incremental amounts are meant to help maintain and upgrade certain aging equipment and to make certain modifications to equipment that was recently purchased.

Does that answer your question?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

The question was actually from an operational standpoint. Do army soldiers actually have the opportunity to interact with the pilots? Is there a requirement for training, or is it automatic, as a part of having dealt with Griffons, for example?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

A lot of the training would be standard when it comes to the use of helicopters. The Chinook, as you know, is a much larger aircraft used to transport both personnel and equipment. Since we haven't had that capability until very recently, there would be some training, but it would be pre-deployment. As it turned out, we have received those helicopters already in theatre because of this accelerated purchase, and the pre-deployment training would simulate the use of that larger helicopter, but yes, you're correct.

The Griffon helicopter, a smaller transport helicopter, is really a utility helicopter. There would be training available to all Canadian Forces going into theatre on its use and on how to appropriately perform duties around a helicopter. The larger one I would simply call a lifesaving instrument. Because of the threats, the less time soldiers are on the ground in Afghanistan and the more they are able to go between forward operating bases and to receive equipment and supplies out in the field via helicopter rather than via land transport, the better. That's literally saving lives today. As you know, that is consistent with the recommendations that came from the independent panel that studied much of the situation around the operation in Afghanistan.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you.

I know Mr. Payne has an important question.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

You have one minute.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Thank you for coming, Minister, and thank you to our Canadian Forces personnel and to the department. I'll try to keep things relatively short.

I'm interested in the land vehicles and in particular in the tanks we have purchased. I think there is some confusion in terms of the number of tanks we have. How many of those tanks are actually in Afghanistan, how many of them are here for training purposes, and where are they located for training purposes here in Canada?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

The short answer is that we purchased 100 Leopard 2 main battle tanks, the purpose being that because they were up-armoured, they had a greater survivability. These are state-of-the-art tanks. We received them at a much-reduced price from the Dutch. That was actually done by my predecessor, Minister O'Connor.

They have been very useful and very successful in protecting soldiers and doing what tanks do. A tank of that size and capability breaks up a party very quickly.

Twenty of them were sent into theatre after certain modifications. There are now 40 that have returned to Canada. There are an additional 20 that we swapped with the Germans. We bought 100; the German department of national defence actually gave us use of 20 tanks immediately so that we could get them in theatre quickly, and we are replacing those with 20 that we had purchased. There are 20 currently being upgraded in Europe to swap out and be sent into theatre. Some have been damaged quite badly, as you might expect; those will return to Canada for repair.

In terms of training, certain modifications are being made to the tanks that have already returned home. Some of these tanks will be used for very special purposes, such as road clearance. They are modified for a specific purpose.

All of that is to say that we will be in receipt of, and we will have, 100 Leopard 2 tanks in the fleet. They will be used for training purposes, primarily at Wainwright.

Would it be Wainwright?

9:40 a.m.

General Walter Natynczyk Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence

It would be in Gagetown, New Brunswick. Some will be in Wainwright.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Some will be in Wainwright, Alberta, and some in Gagetown, New Brunswick, for the purposes of future use of tanks and those who operate them and repair them.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much.

On behalf of all committee members, I would like to thank you for making yourself available to us this morning.

We are going to suspend the proceedings for three minutes before hearing from senior officials from the Department of National Defence.

Thank you, Minister.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you colleagues.

Thank you very much for this opportunity.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Good morning. We shall now resume the 43rd hearing of our committee, and we are pleased to welcome today representatives from the Department of National Defence.

We have the pleasure of welcoming Mr. Robert Fonberg, Deputy Minister, who is accompanied today by his Assistant Deputy Minister, Mr. Dan Ross. I would also like to welcome General Natynczyk; Vice-Admiral Rouleau, Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff; Mr. Lindsey, Assistant Deputy Minister, Finance and Corporate Services; and Major-General Semianiw.

Thank you all very much for being with us.

We have about half an hour. Right now I will give the floor to Ms. Neville.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you Mr. Chair, and thank you all for being here.

I would have liked to ask my question to the minister, but clearly I didn't have the opportunity to do so.

The minister talked quite eloquently, and I think we all agree that we can't send people into harm's way without proper protection. If we look at the appropriations, there are certainly reallocations of dollars to support the personnel. There are wage increases.

I have a concern. It's a very real concern and it is a present-day issue as it relates to the Afghan mission and as it relates to the protection of the personnel on the ground there. If we are suppressing warnings about torture by Afghan authorities, does that place those men and women in the field in greater harm's way? Does it turn the Afghanistan people against them? Does it make the Afghanistan people more vulnerable to recruitment by the Taliban and al Qaeda?

We all value the military. We endorse their efforts. We believe they should have every protection required for them, but my own view is that not addressing the issue of the Afghan detainees in a forthright and open manner is insidious and it potentially puts them in greater harm's way.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Yes.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Forget it. I'll go to the next one.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Ms. Neville, you have the floor.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

That's it.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Who wants to answer that?

9:50 a.m.

Gen Walter Natynczyk

Mr. Chair, I guess I would say that I don't think we should ever underestimate the amount of intelligence gathering that others do on Canada and the knowledge that we have. Each and every day, our men and women leave their forward operating bases and go into combat, and we are doing our very best, using the very best technologies, the very best intelligence, but also the instincts of our men and women so that they can achieve the Government of Canada's missions and goals in Afghanistan, do those tasks successfully, and come home safety.

On the issue of protection, I do want to applaud the tremendous work that the defence team and the rest of the government has put into providing the very best equipment that we could ever have. It's tremendous. I would just say from my perspective that we should not underestimate the intelligence gathering that happens, whether it be over the Internet or whether it be through the media, on what we do.

I don't think Canada has been in this situation of facing combat every day since the Korean War. It's very difficult to sit here in the beautiful city of Ottawa and think about what our men and women are feeling when they're in harm's way in combat. The fact is that intelligence is what ensures that we are successful and what saves our lives.

December 3rd, 2009 / 9:50 a.m.

William F. Pentney Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Mr. Chairman, I just add that the opening of the question was based on the premise that the government is actively suppressing information about torture. I think, as the record has made clear, every specific allegation of torture has been treated very seriously and has been investigated. There have been three occasions on which the transfer of detainees has been paused because of issues that have arisen. Civilian officials from Correctional Service of Canada and from Foreign Affairs have conducted, I believe, over 150 visits, at some risk to themselves, into Afghan prisons to check on the condition of Afghan detainees.

So there are considerable efforts being expended now to support the Afghan government in building a better detention and prison and justice system. Millions of dollars have been invested in that, and individual Canadians have put themselves at risk, over 150 times I believe, going into Afghan prisons to inspect, to speak directly to Canadian-transferred detainees, and to provide assurances of their conditions.

9:55 a.m.

Gen Walter Natynczyk

I would add that it's actually four times that we have stopped transfers. I am personally responsible to do the right thing for the men and women in uniform. In 2006, I was the vice-chief of defence, working for General Hillier. I saw material, and I acted if indeed we had to act. But reinforcing what General Hillier said, we had no cause to act until November 5, 2007, with regard to detainees.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you.

Monsieur Wilfert, you have 30 seconds.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Chairman, can I put three questions on the table and ask for a written response?