Evidence of meeting #3 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was actually.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William F. Pentney  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Denis Rouleau  Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence
Robert Fonberg  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
David Jacobson  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Department of National Defence
W. Semianiw  Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence
Kevin Lindsey  Assistant Deputy Minister, Finance and Corporate Services, Department of National Defence

11:50 a.m.

Vice-Admiral Denis Rouleau Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence

In fact, a critical point of what took place down in Haiti is what you would call a completely tri-service effort. If you use the word “joint”, that expresses exactly what took place down there. We had two ships sail there to bring, first of all, a command and control capability until it was fully established ashore, so they provided that as they arrived on the scene. They provided work parties to go ashore, and at the same time, land force units were already on the ground or arriving on the ground due to the air force capability to bring them there quickly. We were all working together.

The air force basically took a landing strip in Jacmel and turned it into an operational airport under their own control, in order to give some relief to Port-au-Prince, which was completely packed and was not able to operate. The Canadian air force did that, of course working in conjunction with the ships at sea and the land forces ashore. This is a beautiful example of a joint operation that went very, very quickly. As the minister said, the day after the earthquake there was a Canadian aircraft on the ground in Port-au-Prince, and it just went from there.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Thank you for that, Admiral.

I would have to say that the Canadian Forces have done an admirable job. I'm just wondering about the number of Canadian Forces members who were sent there and how many are still there. When will the final ones be returning?

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

It was roughly 2,000 during the entire course of the mission. We're down to roughly 236, I believe. We've been gradually drawing down. That's as of today.

The two ships have now returned to port, and the remaining members of the team continue to hand off various responsibilities. One of the last things I would say is that the Canadian Forces were involved in the building of shelters and latrines because of the concerns about sanitation. That was one of the last things they were doing as they were leaving. They were handing that off to private, or I should say non-governmental, organizations. With the rainy season coming, shelter will be one of the bigger challenges the country will face.

There was an urgent need. They were building, in some cases, the framing for 15 houses a day, which was an impressive effort. It was a Herculean effort on the part of many.

From my perspective, they were doing this above and beyond the expectations, because they felt such a connection to the people there. They really wanted to see Haiti given the restart that we all know it deserves. Canadians responded brilliantly, as you know, as far as personal donations are concerned.

Some of our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and women were reaching into their own pockets and contributing money. That was on top of having brought things like children's clothes, diapers, and things they were able to gather up before they left the port of Halifax. There are also some heartwarming stories of Canadian Forces personnel who were returning to Haiti. They left there in childhood, having been adopted by Canadian families. Some of them—I've heard stories—are in the process of adopting Haitian children themselves.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Thank you.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

You have one minute.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

I think I will just pass on the last minute here.

I want to thank you, Minister, again, for coming, and Admiral, for all the Canadian Forces people.

Thank you.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

I now give the floor to Mr. Martin who will be the last member of our committee to ask the minister questions. Remember that we have to break at noon in order to be able to hear the witnesses from the Department of National Defence.

Mr. Martin, you have five minutes.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Merci beaucoup.

Mr. MacKay, Vice-Admiral Rouleau, gentlemen, thank you very much, all of you, for being here today. I would also thank CF members for their work in Haiti, and, being a B.C. MP, for your exceptional work in Vancouver during the Olympics.

I'm going to just make a couple of comments, Minister, and then I'll pose the questions. If you would be kind enough to respond in writing, that would be fantastic.

With respect to Haiti, I think it would be great if Canada took the advantage and actually advanced an international 911 response system so as to avoid the logistical disaster that always happens post-problem, whether it's a tsunami or Haiti, and so on. It would be a great initiative to have that integrated system to respond logistically to disasters.

My first question is with respect to the future of the JSS and the fixed-wing search and rescue. We know that this is core for the operational abilities of our Canadian Forces. When can we expect the request for proposals to be submitted, and when do you expect this to be completed?

Secondly, do you have a long-term procurement strategy for CF assets? If you do, could we see it? If you don't, when will such a procurement strategy be released so that we don't have this ebb and flow that takes place with respect to the procurement of assets? Then the members can have the surety that they are going to get them when they want to get them.

In the main estimates of 2010-11, there is a $3-billion request for equipment for acquisitions. What equipment is this for?

The last two questions are with respect to the Afghan National Army and the Afghan National Police. How many members have currently been trained and are functional today? What are the end targets? Has anything been done to resolve the challenges within the Afghan National Army and the police, which largely has a non-Pashtun dominated leadership, which is causing structural problems within both of those institutions in Afghanistan?

Finally, how many of the new Leopard tanks that have been purchased are deployed, and how many are sitting in Canada?

Sorry for the lengthy list. I'd appreciate sometime in the future receiving answers to those.

Thanks very much.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

I'll try to respond to a few of them quickly.

On the long-term procurement strategy, we have the broad-brush strokes of the Canada First defence strategy that talks about building all the pillars of the Canadian Forces. This includes investments in equipment, the infrastructure where we house the equipment and where members train, and, most importantly, personnel issues.

Within that strategy you will find dedicated finances for procurement. That includes the refurbishment of all of the major platforms such as shipbuilding, JSS, but also all surface combatants with respect to ice-breaking capability and offshore patrol. Those are not directly under our purview, but they obviously impact Canada's overall shipbuilding strategy.

On the air force, priority funding has been earmarked for replacement of CF-18s and our fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft. We have procured the C-130 replacement contracts now for our Hercules aircraft--so the next generation of that transport capability. We've already purchased and received the C-17s, the heavy transports. We bought used Chinook aircraft that are currently operating in Afghanistan. That was part of the independent recommendations of the panel. We are also purchasing new Chinooks, the F model, for post-Afghanistan operations.

On the family of land combat vehicles, that was a $5-billion procurement. We're working through that, but that money has been set aside specifically for land combat capability. There have already been numerous announcements about patrol vehicles, tanks, and trucks, and there'll be more on the infrastructure on several of our bases across the country.

The frigate life extension program for the existing frigates is well under way. You'll find much of that within the Canada First defence strategy, but we can provide you greater details on the dollar amounts and timeframes.

On the training of Afghanistan soldiers, we have been major participants in that from the earliest days through what are called OMLTs and POMLTs--the operational mentoring teams. We've had dedicated efforts in that regard.

On decisions of leadership within the Afghan National Army, I'm not going to dispute what you've said about some of their challenges. However, I would indicate quite clearly, Mr. Martin, that this is a sovereign country. When it comes to the decisions of the leadership, who is in the chain of command, and what cultural or language background they have, we can give advice, NATO can give advice--and they often do--but these are really sovereign decisions, just as they would be in other government departments within Afghanistan.

The numbers are very ambitious. They're in excess of 300,000, I believe, when it comes to the combined security forces of army and police. That was outlined in General McChrystal's report last fall. We set targets and have met and exceeded targets when it comes to the training of a kandak or battalion. But again, we are somewhat beholden to the ability of the Afghan army to provide us with soldiers to train. A big problem that I'm sure you're aware of is literacy levels. It's not enough to simply identify an individual as somebody you're taking into your security forces, but basic literacy skills are often an impediment to the accelerated training pace that we're trying to achieve.

Clearly the end goal here is to turn over security responsibility to Afghans. That has been a primary goal throughout our time on this mission. All countries, all NATO participants--the 60-plus when you include outside countries such as Australia and New Zealand--recognize that we want to enable those Afghan forces to do what our soldiers do and provide the security to propel the Taliban from entering the country, and provide security around the communities that we are currently tasked to protect.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you Mr. Minister. I also thank the members. Thank you for making yourself available and for your eloquence. You were able to answer the questions that the members of the committee asked.

We will continue our meeting with the officials from the Department of National Defence. We are adjourned for five minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

We are going to resume this third meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence. Our witnesses from the Department of National Defence today include the Deputy Minister, Mr. Robert Fonberg. We also have the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Mr. Denis Rouleau, and the Assistant Deputy Minister, Finance and Corporate Services, Mr. Kevin Lindsey. We also have Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Mr. David Jacobson, and the Associate Deputy Minister, Mr. William F. Pentney.

Thank you for being here with us today. We are going to work until 1 p.m. I am going to give the floor to Mr. Boughen, from the Conservative Party, for five minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Thank you, Chair.

Gentlemen, let us share with you our thanks for taking time out of your busy day to sit with us and answer our questions. We appreciate it.

I have a couple of questions. The first one is addressed to Mr. Fonberg.

To what extent is the reduction in spending premised on the fact that there is to be a significant reduction in defence expenditures due to withdrawal of troops and machines from Afghanistan in 2011? Is there any comment on this that you're able to share with us?

12:10 p.m.

Robert Fonberg Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Yes, only to say, Mr. Chairman, that the incremental costs of the deployment in Afghanistan have been handled as a separate appropriation item since the mission began. So on the costs of the actual mission, while we will no longer be incurring the cost of the mission once we withdraw, no longer will we be getting the appropriation for that either. So the savings are really to the Government of Canada as opposed to the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence itself.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

I have another question, Mr. Chair, if I may.

What particular capabilities that will be changed due to withdrawal of equipment may affect our Canadian Forces? I know that we're all concerned about the safety of the men and women in the CF. Will the depletion of equipment affect our forces in a negative manner? We're concerned. Although we reduce equipment, will we still be able to protect our men and women as best we can and as they need to be protected?

12:15 p.m.

VAdm Denis Rouleau

In terms of the withdrawal plan and how we are actually going to terminate the mission in Afghanistan, it will be done in a way that will never diminish the requirement for equipment and the protection our soldiers have or need in Afghanistan, up until the moment they cease combat operations. They will not lose any equipment. They will not lose for the sake of saying that we are starting to draw down. The drawdown of necessary equipment will start only when the combat operations cease, and the troops stay, as the term is used, “inside the wire”.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Thank you, Chair.

12:15 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

William F. Pentney

If I may, Mr. Chairman, perhaps I'll just add briefly to that. In fact, over time, we'll see a net increase in terms of the availability of equipment. We talked earlier about the availability of tanks. We will have relatively new Leopard tanks refurbished and upgraded for use in subsequent missions as and when the government deploys the Canadian Forces. We will have new Chinook helicopters that we did not have before. We'll have an upgraded UAV capability that we didn't have before, both tactical and other UAV capabilities. Those projects will roll on.

As we roll out of Afghanistan, we will upgrade and refurbish the light armoured vehicles that have served the troops so well, so that for the future in terms of army vehicles, you'll have an upgraded LAV after the rotation as well.

So as the vice-admiral has said, up until the end of the mission the troops will get the equipment they need and the protection they need, but looking forward to the next five to ten years, it could be argued that there's in fact a net enhancement of the availability of equipment for the troops associated with the investments, and I guess as well--it's not for me to say--in building on the lessons from the mission in Afghanistan. Prior to Afghanistan, many militaries were going very light and very fast, because the assumption was that's what you needed to do. I think there's probably been an adjustment in military doctrine through Iraq, Afghanistan, and other missions where the IED has become the unfortunate weapon of choice.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Thanks, Chair.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you.

Now we'll give the floor to Monsieur Paillé, pour cinq minutes.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Chair, I am going to share my time with Mr. Bachand. My question deals specifically with the Manège militaire de Québec.

I have carefully read the supplementary estimates that you have sent us as well as the main estimates for National Defence. Last December 8, I asked a question about the Manège militaire. I was told that the government had set aside the sum of $2 million in the 2009 budget in order to develop a plan for the future of the Manège militaire. In the 2010 budget, the Manège militaire is referred to on p. 259. We are told that the Economic Action Plan is also providing $2 million.

Is that the same $2 million that appears in two different budgets or is it new money? It seems to me like a repeat announcement.

Anyway, as I see it, $2 million to rebuild an armoury is clearly not enough. The rumour in Quebec City is that $100 million will be needed. I have looked through all the information that I have access to and I cannot find the amount allocated for the reconstruction of the Manège militaire. So that is my second question: have you established an amount, in the budget as well as in the estimates, to rebuild the Manège militaire de Québec?

12:15 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

William F. Pentney

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The government set aside $2 million for public consultations, which took place last year, I believe. The government is now following up on those deliberations and is developing reconstruction options. It is true that you cannot rebuild an armoury with $2 million. We have been through an economic crisis, but that did not bring costs down that much. The government has to come up with a plan, but our department is not the only one involved in the planning. There is also Public Works and Government Services, and Heritage Canada. The site is a rather important one, both for Canada and for the federal government.

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you very much. That answers my question.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Mr. Bachand.

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question about these infamous fixed envelopes. I have been told that the contract for the Fixed Wing Search and Rescue project has not been awarded yet. But $3 billion has apparently been set aside in an envelope waiting for the project to get underway. Could you confirm that for me? If so, what are we waiting for to send out the invitations to tender?

Then, Mr. Pentney, you mentioned the refurbishing of the Leopards when they come back from Afghanistan. But there are already 40 of them in Montreal being used mostly for driver training. Can you tell me when it will be done? I have a lot of questions about them. I even went to see these Leopards in Montreal. You also said that they will need to be refurbished at the end of the mission in Afghanistan, but is it not standard practice for badly damaged vehicles, or the whole fleet, to simply be left for the Afghan armed forces? I was wondering if, in the course of your planning, you have already determined which types of vehicles will be left for the Afghan armed forces?

12:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Robert Fonberg

Thank you for the questions.

Mr. Chairman, let me start with the issue of fixed-wing search and rescue at $3 billion.

We don't do these things by way of fixed envelopes per se, Mr. Chairman. In our costing we have assumed, in the context of our annual $21-billion budget, that over time we would end up purchasing a new fleet of fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft for approximately $1.5 billion. The in-service support for those aircraft would be the other $1.5 billion. That money is within our budget and is fungible from year to year. If we don't use it this year to enter into the contract, it is there and available for us in the following year. It is planned into our investment plan as a forward item.

Jake, would you like to say something about where the RFP is on the Leopard 2s for the R and O here in Canada?