National Defence Committee on March 30th, 2010

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm wondering why there are so few stations across Canada. The brochure you gave us showed the Griffin helicopter is used in some circumstances. We know there are bases throughout Canada that house Griffins. Is it that the frequency of the need isn't high enough to equip these different bases with a SAR team, or is it totally the initial cost?

[Col Paul Drover]

There are a number of elements, but I think by and large, the posture we have in place on the bases and the dedicated SAR squadron, both the rotary-wing and our fixed-wing aircraft provide that SAR capability we are looking for, so to take other resources and to increase their mandate, if you will, to do some SAR services, which will include a number of other personnel, training, and all that sort of thing....

I may say, though, aside from our primary aircraft, any aircraft in the military inventory can be used for search and rescue, and we call it secondary. It is not only the three I've identified as support squadrons, but other aircraft. Often we will use Sea Kings for the east coast and sometimes for the west coast. They're always available, but if we were to commit them to some kind of SAR posture that removes them from their primary role when all our equipment basically has a fully committed role, it's a challenge.

Our balance for the dedicated—all they do is search and rescue 100% of the time—is about right.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

There was mention of a cruise ship possibly going through the Canadian Northwest Passage. Is there any form of cost recovery? It may not be the CF or the air force that does the billing, but the idea of a cruise ship sinking and the resources that would be necessary to go there, it being such a risky venture in the first place for a cruise ship to go through there, I was wondering about liability. Yes, it's great that we're Canadians and we're willing to step up in a crisis, but given the possible foolhardiness of cruise ships, what is the practice?

[Col Paul Drover]

Currently there is no cost recovery for the provision of SAR services. I guess it's a federal commitment to the population. It is not only the large cruise ship that is operating in a potentially dangerous environment, but we have a number of adventurers and risk-takers who are the subject of our SAR response capability as well. There is currently no need or requirement or desire to have any cost recovery for any of those situations.

As it turns out, it is being discussed internationally in some of the forums whether or not there is some requirement, a requirement to post a bond, for instance, to cover such costs, but currently, if there were a situation in the north, we would respond the same as we respond to any other SAR incident.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

I will give the floor to Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a number of quick points, Colonel, so I'd appreciate quick answers.

In your statistics with respect to response times—it came down to six people who might have been saved and so on—do those statistics include what's happened in the north?

[Col Paul Drover]

Yes, they do.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Bagnell's point about it being a disaster in the north because we don't have bases up there is covered in those statistics, and it's not the case.

[Col Paul Drover]

That's correct.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

I don't know of any ships--and there are lot of ships with helicopters on them--with specifically SAR helicopters on them. Are you aware of any?

[Col Paul Drover]

No. I'm not sure what the coast guard posture is, because they do have helicopters.

Actually, if I may, I would take a bit of your time to say that for the Northwest Passage and the north itself the coast guard has a vested interest and responsibility. So it's not just a response by the aircraft; it's a response by the coast guard as well.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Bagnell may have accidently left the impression that there is a lack of coordination between the Canadian Forces and other departments. How would you rate the coordination among the CF, the coast guard, CASARA, and international organizations?

[Col Paul Drover]

First of all, we are an active participant in the interdepartmental committee on search and rescue, and it's basically a policy group. One of the things that group is tackling is the Arctic, so that's fairly relevant.

We work very closely with the coast guard. I work with my colleagues at coast guard because of the joint nature of our responsibilities, if you will. It's a very good bond. International committees, as I mentioned, such as ICAO.... Even NATO has a SAR committee, and a lot of SAR is driven by international convention, the responsibilities that extend beyond our borders, and we participate in all of the forums that deal with it.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

So there's a lot of effective coordination at all levels and among all agencies?

[Col Paul Drover]

That's correct. Most recently, the Arctic Council struck a task force for eight nations to come up with an agreement or an MOU for SAR cooperation in the north. Our department and the coast guard, along with DFAIT, are active participants in that task force.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Bachand pulled a quote out of an NRC assessment of the fixed-wing SAR for a statement of requirement and suggested that we perhaps should have a base in Iqaluit. I know you can't give a number, but in the range of small, medium or large, what would be the cost of that, and what would be the likelihood of there being an incident for which that resource would be required?

[Col Paul Drover]

There would be a very substantial cost to set up some kind of an operation in the north that required a 24/7 operation, if that's what you're talking about. Statistically, so far, again, things could change over time.

There is no logical place in the north that would cater to the north. The north is a really large place, and sometimes the consolidated resource bases that we have make sense, given the number of incidents we have to respond to.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

In terms of MAJAID, we talked about cruise ships and so on. Obviously if there is a ship there with 3,000 to 5,000 people on it...how would you rate the challenge of doing anything to save or rescue 3,000 to 5,000 people? Is it practical to have a resource in Iqaluit or somewhere else that would cater to that?

[Col Paul Drover]

Certainly especially the MAJAID requires a lot of overhaul and maintenance of medical supplies, swapping out and things, and it requires a platform to deliver it. If you consolidate that, when you have all those things together, you end up with a faster response than you would have if you sort of cached it someplace in the north and then had to fly to it to pick it up.

Again, the probability of occurrence, the results, and the catastrophe are all being actively discussed. There is no question about it, and that's what we're looking at for the north.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

We will continue to adapt our procedures and basing, and so on, based on current and forecast situations.

[Col Paul Drover]

Absolutely, sir.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Do we do our ambulance service from bases other than Gander with the SAR airplanes?

[Col Paul Drover]

I would like to speak a little bit about the air ambulance.

The mandate for the federal SAR does not include air ambulance. Our responsibility is for aviation and marine incidents offshore. The Great Lakes are also included in that marine responsibility. What takes place, though, is that provinces and territories have the responsibility for air evacuation, and when they do not have the capacity, they call upon the military, the CF, to perform during those incidents.

Newfoundland is a good example. They have an air ambulance capability, but we do a fair number of air medevacs, and those are not our principal responsibility.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

I give the floor to Mr. Wilfert.