National Defence Committee on Sept. 20th, 2011

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Do you plan on going back to Libya, Ambassador, in the short term? What are the plans in terms of timing?

[Sandra McCardell]

Yes, it's my intention to return in the near term.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. McKay, you have the final seven minutes.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was in South Africa last week. We met with probably more than 40 MPs, plus we had the benefit of the president's views on Libya. I can say with some assurance that their views are not our views. I just want to put that on the table, because as they see it—as the African Union sees it, I think—NATO has gone way past its mandate. It has effectively gone from protecting civilians to effecting a regime change. And they're not overly happy about it. They think the African Union and the Arab League should be far more engaged in this process. It is, after all, their neighbourhood.

If you had any other confirmation of their views, it was, if you will, the triumphalism of Sarkozy and Cameron, which in their view was not helpful. It reminds others of Mr. Bush's triumphalism, which extended the Iraq war another four years.

The issue is whether we are effectively being asked to supervise a low-grade civil war. This is a tribal society. It's very complicated. And the media reports there's a certain lack of enthusiasm on the part of the rebels to engage in the really tough fighting going on where Gadhafi's forces are. If you're looking at it as a Gadhafi-force person, you're saying, “Well, I have nothing to lose. So I'm going to fight, and I'm going to fight to the bitter end.”

Ambassador, you said we had built up some goodwill. Madame, I'm prepared to buy that. What is the plan here? We may have squandered some goodwill in the African Union. We may have squandered some goodwill in the Arab League. We certainly have spent materiel and resources.

So it's not clear to me what exactly we're asking for in the extension of the mandate. Be far more clear as to how we're going to engage the African Union, the Arab League, the tribal factionalism, and the various competing interests. And how are we going to be, effectively, not supervising a low-grade civil war that will go on and on and continue to engage us for months and months?

[Sandra McCardell]

Thank you.

The points you have raised are important. Some of them, on challenges we're going to be looking at going forward, were highlighted in my presentation.

On the question of the African Union and the Arab League, certainly South Africa is a key player in the African Union, but it is not the only voice within the African Union. Certainly that country has taken particular positions and views on Libya that I think not all of their partners on the continent have shared. There are countries that have recognized the NTC, in which the NTC has opened its embassies or appointed its own diplomatic personnel, and those countries have been in positions similar to our own. I think in each case you find there are different positions reflecting a country's position. There are different national interests, different histories, and different histories with Gadhafi specifically that have affected some of their positions. So this is something members of the African Union, as well as similar structures in the Arab League, need to address as sort of regional organizations.

I think there absolutely is scope to have these organizations play an active role in Libya going forward. In the end, it will be up to the Libyans and the Libyan government to determine exactly how they're going to address that.

With regard to the fighting—you mentioned the NTC doesn't seem to want to engage in the heavy fighting—just to be clear, I think at this point the NTC is very cognizant of the fact that it does not want to have a long-term civil war, and it's approaching the fighting in these three cities and the areas around them very carefully so it does not end up with anything that can be interpreted as reprisal attacks or any kind of tribal fighting. Bani Walid, for example, is the home of the largest tribe in the country, the Warfalla. When I was there, they explained to me that in fact they were quite determined that those NTC forces outside of the city be from the same tribe rather than from another tribe, precisely to avoid giving the impression that there was going to be inter-tribal fighting. I think they've been very cautious.

There have been efforts to have humanitarian assistance sent in to these cities so the civilian population is not unduly affected. I'm not saying they're not affected, but there have been efforts to recognize that there are civilians in these centres and their needs need to be addressed. So I think they're being very careful this close to the end, if you will. They don't want to make some major mistakes that they will then have to live with for a long time in the future.

As for how this will all transpire in the longer term, it's a little bit difficult to tell right now. I think there is all the goodwill on their part to launch their country successfully. I think there is the goodwill on our part to assist them to do that and a very clear desire on everyone's part to avoid some of the continuing conflict within the country that maybe we've seen in other countries. At this point it's going to be up to them to negotiate very carefully with those who are in these cities in an attempt to bring this to a close.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I agree with your analysis of the AU, particularly with respect to South Africa, and probably there is a unique history between Gadhafi and the ANC. I understand that.

So the question then becomes if it's not South Africa, which is a big player in the AU, then who can the west in particular and the Africans and the Arabs in general rely on to do that transition? Because the more it's seen as a NATO and western operation, ironically, the less chance it has of success. So who or what country would do the hand-off?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Your time's expired, so perhaps the ambassador can give just a brief response to that.

[Sandra McCardell]

In short, I think we're going to need to look at who the NTC and the new government establish their strongest ties with. Also, I think we've seen some evolution in South Africa's position. The hard line they originally took has become much softer, and they've talked about a willingness to work with a Libyan government following elections and so on. So we may see evolution on both sides.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We're going to start the five-minute round.

Mr. Opitz, you have the first questions.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, this question is for Her Excellency.

Excellency, going forward, have we had any indication of the role the United Nations will play in Libya's reconstruction, and do we have an assessment of where the European Union stands on Libya? Has there been any indication of whether it is willing to come forward and help the transitional government with its transition?

[Sandra McCardell]

I'll start and then turn it over to Madame Gervais-Vidricaire for some details.

On the UN reconstruction, absolutely, the UN has been engaged. Back when we still talked about a contact group, there was a UN special advisor on post-conflict stabilization, Ian Martin, who was attending those meetings and providing briefings to advise us on the plans the UN had in place. I was developing with the NTC the process we are in now.

I think just yesterday or in the last couple of days Ian Martin was named as the UN Secretary General's special representative for Libya. I think that shows they've recognized that's the phase we're now in.

The resolution passed on Friday lays out specific areas where the UN will be establishing a mission. The resolution created the UN support mission in Libya for an initial three months. What they've outlined is that they will assist and support Libya in national efforts—so continuing with the importance of this being Libyan-led—to restore public security and order and promote the rule of law; undertake inclusive political dialogue to promote national reconciliation and embark upon constitution-making and electoral process; third, extend state authority through the strengthening of emerging accountable institutions and the restoration of public services; fourth, promote and protect human rights, particularly those of vulnerable groups, and support transitional justice; fifth, take immediate steps to initiate economic recovery; and finally, coordinate support that may be requested from other multilateral and bilateral actors.

I guess the last point is really what we've been talking about all the way through, that what we do to support the NTC needs to be coordinated among ourselves.

The European Union has played an important role. They are sending in their own assessment missions to see where they can best fit in on the ground. Certainly one area that stands out for them is their interest in border control and issues that affect migration. That's something they were active in even before the conflict. And there are other areas they are going to be looking at.

Marie.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

I think you've covered everything.

I would just maybe add that Ian Martin was in Tripoli at the end of last week. As I mentioned, there will be a meeting in New York this afternoon to discuss coordination and assessment missions. The goal is to have these assessment missions completed by the end of September, so we're not looking at months, we're looking at weeks.

As the ambassador said, we are working very closely with the UN—there's a general agreement that the UN is in the lead in terms of coordinating these assessment missions—as well as with our partners from the EU, who are actively engaged.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

General Vance, you gave a great briefing today, and we thank you for that.

First of all, I'd like to thank the RCAF and the RCN for their pivotal role in making sure that the Libyan people have come this far.

Sir, what threats do you still see towards the Libyan people, and what kind of help do you still see them requiring from the Canadian Forces?

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

I think there's probably a wide range of threats to the Libyan people that will come from a variety of directions, most of which are probably not military threats. They're trying to re-establish a nation, so I'd say there are all sorts of challenges, if not threats, to them as they go through that process. I think the ambassador has covered it off extremely well.

In terms of hard military threat, Gadhafi forces continue to exist. Despite the degradation of regime control of the nation, Gadhafi forces continue to exist in considerable strength in certain parts of the country, particularly in the centre and south.

The NTC forces, the anti-Gadhafi forces, are making progress, but it's a hard slog. As you can see, on any given day, in open source reporting, Gadhafi forces have had and continue to have the propensity to harm civilians when they're in their midst. I would say that those who are in close proximity to those forces are in peril. The NTC knows this as well, and that's why they keep doing what they're doing, to try to eliminate the threat to those civilians and to re-establish normalcy.

I would say that the ball is largely, in terms of managing this, in the NTC's court, as we would very much want it to be. NATO continues to operate and therefore Canada continues to operate in support of the NATO mandate or the UN mandate and the NATO objectives to do exactly what I described: to prevent these perils to civilians from coming to fruition.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. Time has expired.

Madam Moore, vous avez la parole.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chair, unfortunately, all conflicts often involve transgressions. Therefore, Amnesty International has made a list of war crimes committed not only by the Qadhafi clan, but also by some members of the NTC: the settling of scores, summary executions, prisoner torture or murder, false arrests.

I am wondering what the remedies are for these types of actions. Can we ensure that the crimes will be punished across the board? How can we ensure that those crimes are dealt with appropriately, regardless of whether they were committed by NTC members or the Qadhafi clan?

[Sandra McCardell]

Mr. Chair, the crimes were committed by both sides—by the Qadhafi and the anti-Qadhafi forces—and are equally unacceptable. Some incidents have been noted. I even think that Amnesty International had issued a statement claiming that the number of crimes committed by anti-Qadhafi forces was lower than the number of crimes committed by pro-Qadhafi forces. Nevertheless, both groups should be tried for their actions.

Finding and prosecuting the individuals who committed the crimes is important. I think that the National Transitional Council agrees with that. This body accepts the fact that individuals on both sides of the conflict have made serious mistakes and should be tried in a court of law. That's something that is important not only to us, but also to the council. It's important to deal with crimes committed in the past, such as individual acts, so as to avoid a vicious cycle of retribution and retaliation. Dealing with these actions legally would eliminate the possibility of intertribal conflicts and other long-term hostilities—as a colleague pointed out.

It's important for diplomatic representatives on the ground to continue pressuring the council and Libyan authorities to move forward with these legal processes and to ensure appropriate punishments. I must say that, right now, the council is overtasked. It is trying to stabilize the country and govern it at the same time, in addition to establishing a new cabinet and settling a number of issues. That being said, putting off dealing with this matter for a long time is unacceptable.

One of our goals on the ground, as a re-established embassy, would be to stay in touch with the council and to regularly remind it of its obligations to the Libyan people. We should also discuss with the council its own documents about its vision of a democratic Libya, its constitutional declaration, and so on. The council established its own governance principle, and it's up to us to remind it of how important it is to apply the principles it set out.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Has the NTC taken steps for the prompt prosecution of individuals who have allegedly committed war crimes in the past, so that those people don't end up sitting on the NTC for two years, carrying out duties until they are tried?

[Sandra McCardell]

I am not familiar with the specific steps taken by the council. That's something we could follow up on.

However, organizations like Amnesty International and, previously, Human Rights Watch had produced a report on the mistakes made by both sides. Those NGOs, which I feel do important work, have raised these issues. It's up to us, the international community, to revisit these issues, along with the council, in order to prosecute the individuals.

As I said, Libya is going through a transition period and is faced with meeting some urgent goals, on several levels. However, as soon as they have some time to start the legal proceedings, they will have to do so. Should they need assistance, technical or otherwise, to gather the evidence needed to begin the eventual prosecution, the international community could perhaps provide them with that assistance.

Regardless, what's important right now is for the NGOs and the media, in particular, to bring up these issues, and for us to help the council with the prosecution and to remind it to begin the trials. The third step would consist in implementing the necessary processes. Like you, I am convinced that this is extremely important, but we also need to keep in mind the principles those people set out during the conflict, before us, the international community, and their goals in the country. The last thing they want is a vicious cycle where attacks lead to more attacks and where a system of retaliation is adopted. That's one of our priorities, on the ground.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Merci.

Mr. Chisu, you have the floor.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Your Excellency, thank you very much that we have re-established so quickly a diplomatic presence in Libya. I commend you and the Department of Foreign Affairs for that, and the Canadian army, who helped in this.

Can you elaborate on major Canadian companies' presence in Libya and their concerns at the present time for the reconstruction process that has already started, in view of our unfreezing of $2.2 billion worth of Libyan assets?

[Sandra McCardell]

We have been in touch throughout the last months of the conflict. I've been in touch, in my capacity as ambassador, with a number of the key companies present on the ground. All the way through we've been able to provide them with our sense of how events were evolving on the ground and who have been emerging as key interlocutors.

This process has obviously accelerated in the last few weeks, since there has been such an important shift in conditions in the country. In addition to my own calls with key partners, we've had broader conference calls with about 20 companies that were either previously active or interested in the market. Through those phone calls, we've been able to bring them up to date on what our best information and market intelligence is on the ground, and they've also shared their concerns with us. Principally, those fall into two categories. One is payment for work performed and secondl is establishing or re-establishing themselves on the ground quickly so they can take advantage of some of the new opportunities.

With the re-establishment of our diplomatic mission, one of our priorities is to have commercial resources back at the embassy and to be able to provide full service to Canadian companies. We anticipate having someone out there by early next week. We have already re-engaged our local trade staff, and they're able right now, in a limited capacity, to field questions and provide advice.

The unfrozen assets obviously belong to the Libyan people.

One of the roles of the new trade commissioner will be to ensure that Canadian companies receive priority for payment of work performed. We need, as well, to provide some legal capacity to access how this can be done best under Libyan law.

As for construction and reconstruction going forward, I would just flag, having been there on the ground, that it's clear there aren't going to be the broad infrastructure projects that we saw after conflicts in other countries. NATO has been remarkably precise, so the damage is to specific infrastructure that supported command and control. This is very limited. Then, of course, there are areas that saw significant fighting, like Misrata or Ras Lanuf, where there is some reconstruction work to be done. But we shouldn't give the impression there is a broad swath of this country that was damaged; power plants remain in place, bridges, and so on.

What we will certainly do is to look at these opportunities, but also to look at the pre-existing opportunities. We were already active in looking at infrastructure projects that would be needed in the longer term, such as water treatment, and so on. We are looking at bringing in the companies that were previously interested in or bidding on those and putting them in touch with the right new contacts.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I have a question for the general. In your professional estimate, how strong are the remaining pockets of pro-Gadhafi forces, their supply lines, and what kinds of threats still exist for the civilians we are fighting to protect? Is there any threat of chemical weapons? And finally, how do you see the role of the Canadian Forces in the immediate future?