National Defence Committee on March 13th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I would just say that's questionable—relevance. That isn't part of the government's plans at this point in time, but I'll leave it up to the witnesses.

Mr. Fantino, if you want to address that or not, it's up to you.

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

As I indicated, we remain committed to the joint strike fighter program. There are many reasons that we feel that particular program will, in the end, afford not only us but the partner nations the greatest advantage in terms of air supremacy and those kinds of issues—the mission's success.

But we have not as yet discounted the possibility, of course, of backing out of any of the program. None of the partners have. We are not, and we'll just have to think it through further as time goes on. We are confident that we will not leave Canada or our men and women in uniform in a lurch, but it's hypothetical to go any further right now.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Associate Minister Fantino.

I would now like to address the Minister of National Defence regarding an article published yesterday in the Ottawa Citizen concerning a program that would result in the loss of 700 civilian jobs.

As concerns the 2012-2013 estimates, could the Minister of National Defence comment on the information in this article?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

What I'll say about that article is that it's speculation. It's pre-budget talk that is going on in a lot of departments. As I said to questions from your colleague in the House, these are decisions that have not been finalized.

There will be obvious disclosures made. Information will be made available post-budget. But until such time as we have all of the information before us and all of the decisions are made, this is not something we can put forward now.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

This article refers to the famous program that was apparently agreed upon by Major-General Howard.

Can the minister confirm that Major-General Howard did indeed sign off on this program, which refers to cuts that could be made in 2012-2013?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I can confirm that he signed something that was in the possession of a journalist. But I certainly wouldn't attest to any of the figures or any of the information that was contained in that document.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

This article also refers to potential closures of support units that include civilian personnel. Can the minister give us information concerning the potential closure of bases or units within certain military bases?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

What I can tell you is that, as a result of several exercises, including a strategic operating review and a deficit reduction action plan, we are taking a look across the board at Defence expenditures. This is happening in every department.

Suffice it to say that with the close out of the Afghanistan mission and the operational tempo changing, we're able to make and we should make—appropriately—adjustments as to where our spending priorities are within the Department of National Defence. We then have to take a look outward as to where and what Canadian defence priorities will be in the coming years. Much of that includes infrastructure, of course, as well as equipment, personnel, and the readiness posture.

This strategic review and deficit reduction exercise is all about doing what most businesses do, and what Canadians themselves and their families do, in assessing priorities, responding to budgetary pressures, and making the right decisions as we go forward. Savings as a result of these efforts will be reflected in the budget and they will be communicated post-budget.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Strahl, your turn.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ministers and officials, thank you for being here.

My question will be about the ongoing training mission in Afghanistan.

I was glad to hear you, Minister, and Mr. Christopherson as well, highlight the fact that our mission in Afghanistan is not over. There is sometimes a danger for our friends in the media, and certainly Canadians at large, to think that because of ceasing combat operations we no longer have folks who are there in harm's way. Certainly I have constituents there on the training mission, one of whom you promoted when you were visiting Kabul. It was certainly an honour for him.

I know you have had some very strong things to say recently about certain tragic events: 16 civilians being killed, and also an issue with the desecration of a Koran, etc. I want to give you an opportunity to echo those sentiments before this committee.

Also, in the supplementary estimates there are requests for additional funding for the training mission. Could you touch on where we are with that mission? What are some of our notable accomplishments? And finally, are we seeing that the Afghan National Army is going to be ready for the task in front of them by the time 2014 rolls around?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Strahl.

Through the chair to the committee, I'm glad you've drawn attention to the fact that we do have a significant contingent of Canadian Forces on the ground in Afghanistan in a new location, of course, in the north. In and around the capital, Kabul, as well as around Herat and Mazar-e-Sharif are the static bases where we're taking part in military training of various sorts to help professionalize and improve the capacity of the Afghan national security forces. Those include army and police.

We are imparting the skills and the type of discipline and professionalism that our soldiers themselves exhibit. I say with great pride and confidence that our soldiers are very good at it, because of the way they have advanced through the forces themselves, the type of personal hands-on approach they take, and the respect they show. I don't say this in the context of what other countries do, nor is this meant in any way as a reflection on recent events. It's simply to say that the Canadian soldiers have a very real way to bond with the trainees they're working with, so they do it well with police, and they do it well with military personnel.

I should note the fact that we have both municipal police and RCMP taking part in the training mission as well, and we're very grateful. Supported by the whole of government, our diplomats there in the capital in particular have been extremely helpful in this training mission.

To come directly to the issue of recent events, I'm concerned. I think we have to be concerned given the volatility and these very horrific recent events that have added to the tensions. As a result, we have taken certain precautions, additional security measures. There were efforts made some time ago to improve the filter, that is, the intake, of Afghan security recruits who are coming onto these bases, not just into the Canadian training mission, but across the larger NATO training mission in Afghanistan. All of this is done to improve the security atmosphere around the trainers. It's not to say for a moment that we can ever eliminate the risk, but we want to create the atmosphere that is most conducive to training while at the same time protecting our personnel there and enabling them to do this important work.

Is it having an effect, Mr. Strahl? Absolutely. The numbers have swelled to now over 300,000 since the focus has been placed on training. Canadians brought much of their combat experience from the south, from Kandahar, to that mission. Many of the trainers would have served in the combat mission, which was extremely useful, because they had achieved in some cases language skills, greater cultural sensitivity, and understanding of the overall dynamics, if you will, and tribal aspects of the country. So the numbers have increased, but so has the capability to independently plan, operate, and execute missions around the country, protecting their borders, their sovereignty, their people, and their villages.

So this will be, in my view, one of, if not the landmark accomplishment of Canada's contribution in Afghanistan—the security abilities of the Afghan national security forces that we would have contribution to in an enormous way.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Time has expired.

To finish the second round, Mr. Alexander, you have the floor.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our ministers for being here today and for answering these questions so fulsomely.

I think many of us, at least on the government side and the majority in the House of Commons, will be pleased to see that through the supplementary estimates and the main estimates, the government is already starting to meet its commitment to reduce and ultimately eliminate the deficit, while remaining true to the principles of the Canada First defence strategy and while delivering the best equipment for our men and women in uniform. Your testimony certainly reinforces that narrative.

Minister, MacKay, I'm wondering if you could make a few remarks, with regard to the main estimates, on the importance of environmental stewardship. We do sometimes have controversies, justified or otherwise. There is a legacy that has had to be addressed over many years in the Far North and elsewhere. Is the commitment of the Department of National Defence in this regard as strong as it should be and adequately resourced?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Alexander.

Thank you for your service to Canada. As the former ambassador to Afghanistan, I know you have intimate knowledge of that country and a great deal of know-how concerning how Canada can best contribute.

With respect to your question on environmental stewardship, I would proudly say that the Canadian Forces are very much at the forefront of efforts to take responsibility for contaminated sites and places where unexploded ordnance still exists, and there are allotments in the main estimates aimed at continuing that stewardship and environmental awareness and contribution.

Many of the properties that require attention and investment are in remote parts of the country, as you might expect. Many of them are the bases themselves, but we've assigned a very high priority to environmental programs. A good example is Goose Bay in Labrador. The base there, which was formerly occupied by American troops, has received something in excess of $300 million in investment for cleanup of those environmental waste sites.

This is also extremely important in addressing past problems. It is an opportunity really to give back in many senses to the communities that have played host to the Canadian Forces in previous years. We are committed to ensuring that these contaminated sites and the hazardous waste that may be found on some of these sites are managed in a prudent and responsible way, and ultimately that we leave the environment more pristine than we found it.

If I can refer briefly to Afghanistan, Mr. Chair, that is, in fact, the case. The space we occupied at the Kandahar Airfield in Afghanistan, the ground we walked on, is literally in better condition now than when we found it. It is a remarkable accomplishment that we have left not a trace of our presence on that ground, and that we have taken not only all of the physical evidence that we were there—the chattels, the buildings, the equipment—but have also remediated the actual soil that we occupied. That is really a testament to the commitment of the Canadian Forces to the environment, both in our country, but in the case of Afghanistan, in theirs.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I have one final question for Minister Fantino.

There is, in the House and elsewhere, a lot of discussion of new aircraft and new ships. What is sometimes lost from sight is the renewal of the family of land vehicles for the Canadian Forces. There are very extensive commitments in these main estimates for continuing that process.

Minister, could you update the committee on the extent to which the resources proposed in the supplementary estimates and in main estimates before us today for the family of land vehicles are in fact equipping the Canadian Army in accordance with the principles and the capabilities defined by the Canada First defence strategy? Are we meeting those targets? Are we carrying forward the legacy of lessons learned from Afghanistan, from the Balkans, and elsewhere?

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

We are moving forward on a number of projects.

We talked earlier about the light armoured vehicles. There are some very significant enhancements there, as we mentioned earlier, but there are other projects, of course, with respect to capabilities of the Canadian Forces to ensure that they remain at the highest level of readiness.

A number of contracts are being awarded with respect to close combat vehicles and tactical armoured patrol vehicles. There are also some other aspects dealing with upgrades of our tanks and so forth. We're looking at a whole series of enhancements for the army: light armoured vehicles, the LAV-III; tactical armoured patrol vehicles; close combat vehicles; a tank replacement project; the force mobility enhancement family of land combat vehicles; and there are other logistical vehicles and so forth. There is a whole stream of land assets in the process of being either upgraded or renewed.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. The time has expired.

That ends our second round. We have time for our third round, in which each party gets five minutes of supplemental questions.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Ministers, you'll be very much aware that the issue of search and rescue continues to boil at a pace. We've had a number of incidents recently, and now we understand that the purchase of the fixed-wing search and rescue planes will be pushed back yet again.

We know from a 2010 internal report the dire consequences of not replacing these planes. The report noted that the Buffalo fleet: ...is facing significant problems obtaining replacement parts and the current system of machining these parts is both expensive and [time-consuming].

I suspect that if it continues, and if there's enough of a backup, those parts are not going to be produced and are not going to be ready.

Given the concerns that already exist, Ministers, about whether or not search and rescue is up to par with where Canadians want it to be right now without this particular problem, now on top of this, we're seeing a delay and the tendering now is apparently going to be pushed back to 2013.

The planes are only good until 2015-2017. In light of the other comments I've made, why should Canadians have any comfort that you two are on top of this file and that, indeed, search and rescue is going to hit the standard that Canadians demand?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson.

I'll allow Mr. Fantino to respond directly to the issue of fixed-wing, but let me say that the issue of confidence that Canadians can have in the men and women, the SAR techs, is what counts here. The equipment they need—I agree with you—is extremely important. The Buffalo, like the Sea King helicopter, is an old aircraft. It has served remarkably well, and the people who maintain them deserve tremendous credit for the work they do each and every day.

You would know, as I mentioned earlier, that we have a huge country. Arguably, the largest search and rescue territory in the world is found here in Canada—larger than continental Europe. We have some estimates of 20,000 people a year who benefit from the efforts of these SAR techs and their aircraft—1,200 lives saved; 8,000 incidents.

It is noteworthy that there have been a number of tragedies. Many of these are affected by the time in which the search and rescue crews are notified. In the incident in Newfoundland and Labrador that you're aware of involving Burton Winters, a young man, it was some 20 hours before the Canadian Forces were contacted to take part in the actual search. I say this only because there are a number of factors other than equipment that impact on the effectiveness of search and rescue.

But the aircraft you're referring to, the Buffalo—the fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft—is slated for replacement. It is in the National Defence budget, it is found in the Canada First defence strategy, and we have every intention of replacing that through a competitive, fulsome process.

But I'll let Mr. Fantino speak to this.

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Christopherson, you're quite right; it has been a long time coming. There have been a number of very significant efforts made, but more recently, if you will, it is going forward. It has taken its time, of course, to go through the process to ensure that it's transparent, fair, and competitive. There's a lot of engagement with the industry in this particular project, before and now.

The matter is scheduled to go before Treasury Board in the not-too-distant future. We're very anxious to move it forward, and we're very conscientious about the need to have this project finally off and running.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ministers, for that.

I have to tell you, what I heard was a lot of “it's in budgets”, “it's in a plan”. It's everywhere except in the air helping Canadians. I didn't hear much at all, with respect, Ministers, about the timeline. The tendering won't even go out until 2013. If any of my facts are wrong, please correct me, but my understanding is that the tendering won't go out till 2013. The Buffalo starts to be in jeopardy at 2015, and we already know from a report back in 2010 that there were concerns about being able to provide parts.

So what I haven't heard, Ministers, is any assurance that in search and rescue the standard will be met as Canadians demand it. I didn't hear that. I heard a lot of talk, but I didn't hear those answers.

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

I don't know where the 2013 date came from. I too am very surprised that this, in fact, was said by anybody. We're expediting the process as quickly as we can, and at the very same time being mindful of due diligence, being mindful of the engagement of industry and that the process needs to be transparent.

You may recall that this thing has been started and stopped on a number of occasions before. We intend to succeed this time, and we're working diligently to make sure that all of the highlights are addressed and all of the concerns are addressed. I don't know where the 2013 came from. We certainly hope that we can expedite that a lot sooner, Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

At best, it's less than a year difference. That didn't answer the question, Minister.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Let me add to what was just stated.

First of all, as you're well aware, the Buffalo, the fixed-wing, is but one of an entire fleet of aircraft that take part in search and rescue, as we work with the coast guard, another federal agency, and provincial and municipal ground search and rescue. It's part of a total package and we've taken steps recently, as you're aware, to improve the protocol and the coordination of communication between all of those bodies.

Equipment is critically important. This is a procurement that is well behind schedule—we're conscious of that fact, and this is not said as an excuse but simply to put it in a context. There are three government departments involved in procurements such as this. It is moving through a process that has been stalled on a number of occasions.

As Mr. Fantino said, we're very aware of the need, particularly, and most importantly, for the SAR techs, to have that aircraft. These are people who perform daily heroics. They are some of the most unsung heroes in our country in uniform, in any part of our country. And I appreciate your passion for this issue, because we recognize that it is something that has to move quickly at this point. There are timeframes that have to be met.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Time's expired.

Mr. McKay.