National Defence Committee on March 11th, 2015

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Excuse me, Mr. Minister, thank you for your answer. I heard your answer. Yes, thank you.

One of the myths that the government has been promoting is stable, increased funding for 20 years. However, in 2010, the freezes and cuts started. The reality is that between 2007 and 2014, an average of 23% of vote 5 funds were not spent, were deliberately clawed back. That's compared with an average under the previous government of 2% of funds being lapsed.

So can the minister explain why $8 billion of defence funding was lapsed while our military is left without adequate equipment, training cycles have been slashed, and inadequate mental health professionals have been hired to care for those wounded in Afghanistan?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chair, I would characterize that as a loaded question, most of whose premises I disagree with. For example, the member characterized lapses as deliberate clawbacks. Every department ends up spending less than their authorized amount. That's prudent fiscal management by managers. If there was a lower ratio of lapsing under the previous government, it's probably because the military budget was so much smaller. It was down to $12 billion for several years there, so they had to do as best they could with very meagre resources in that period.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Okay, thank you, Mr. Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thirty seconds, please, Ms. Murray.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

The Prime Minister stated in 2008 that if Canada is to be taken seriously in the world, it needs the capacity to act, so I'd like to ask the minister whether reducing the military expenditure to an all-time low of 1% of GDP is part of the plan of increasing Canada's capacity to defend our values and interests abroad?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

The truth is the opposite of your characterization, Ms. Murray. The all-time low was when it reached under 0.7% GDP under the previous Liberal government, as opposed to the 1.2% to which this government increased it. We've given DND a 2% annual escalator. No other department enjoys that. This is at a time when virtually all of our major allies are cutting their military budgets in absolute terms, while we are actually increasing ours.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I think that's inaccurate information on the part of the Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Time, Ms. Murray.

Ms. Gallant, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It just never ceases to amaze me how a person who likes to talk about slashing and cutting talks about our expenditures when, after the decade of darkness when they were spending again, it was half of what we're spending now. In terms of lapses, we're not going to pay for something we haven't received, unlike the Liberals did in the sponsorship program.

My first question is for Minister Fantino, who mentioned during his presentation that there was a $10,000 transfer from Public Works for a new pay administration, separate and apart from that of the rest of the government. Why is that necessary?

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

Mr. Chair and members, I'm sure that members understand that CSE has three mandates under which it operates: IT security, foreign signals, and intelligence and assistance. These activities play a vital role in the protection of Canadians and Canadian interests here at home and abroad. For personal security reasons, CSE has chosen to continue to administer the pay of its employees independently of other departments. This means that it has opted out of integrating with the government-wide Phoenix pay system and consolidated its compensation service in the public service pay centre. That's $10,500 previously transferred out of the CSE budget line that is being reinstated.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Are they implying, though, that the payroll in general is subject to breaches? Why would they need something special over and above the rest of the employees of the government?

[Julian Fantino, Conservative, Vaughan, ON]

It's very simply the nature of the work that they do and the fact that they need to have this added protection in carrying out their duties and responsibilities. It does in fact conform to the whole theme of what CSE does, its people, and its vulnerabilities.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Minister Kenney, you mentioned Daesh. For people who may be tuning in today who don't know what that means, would you share that with us?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

That's the Arabic name for the organization that currently goes by the Islamic State. That's what they call themselves, previously known as the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, and the Islamic State in Iraq and al-Sham. It's the same organization.

The reason I use Daesh is that they regard it as pejorative.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The death cult is even a better description of what they do.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

There are many descriptions, but I can tell you that this organization is so depraved that even al Qaeda has condemned some of their tactics.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

That leads to my next question. We see, as you described, Boko Haram across northeast Africa, and we almost have a total front that's swarming upward toward Europe across the Middle East as well as north Africa, and then again al Shabaab in other parts of Africa.

There has been discussion about links between al Qaeda and some of these other groups that were splitting off, but is anyone seriously looking at there being an overall umbrella organization that is orchestrating all of these separately or together?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Al Qaeda, certainly, played a kind of a coordinating role for organizations of this nature. I believe the consensus view of security experts is that Daesh or ISIL has sought basically to take over al-Qaeda's leadership role as a coordinating intelligence, if you will, with these various streams of jihadist violence.

For example, just this past week, Boko Haram, the vicious jihadist terror organization operating in northern Nigeria that has become notorious for having kidnapped several hundred Christian girls and selling them into sexual slavery, and for bombing dozens of churches and murdering tens of thousands of individuals, issued a statement indicating its affiliation with Daesh, with ISIL.

Similarly, you will recall the grotesque beheading of 21 Coptic Christians on a beach in Libya. When you talk about being close to Europe, that's frankly a day sail from Italy.

We don't believe that the people who committed that act are moving necessarily from Syria into Iraq to Libya, but rather these were jihadists already in Libya, by and large, who essentially are affiliating themselves.

This was the point I made in the answer to the very first question. Daesh, or ISIL, by promoting this idea of the caliphate, has become a very seductive idea to movements and individuals who share these distorted ideas. That's why some of them are seeking to affiliate themselves with ISIL, with Daesh.

In the southern Philippines, in Mindanao, where there has been a long-time insurgency by Islamist groups who, for example, bombed a school bus last December, even some of those Islamist groups have declared their affinity to Daesh.

That's why the fight against this organization in the Middle East has hugely important symbolic and, therefore, strategic implications across all of those countries.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Minister, thank you for accommodating the disruption in timing this afternoon. I understand from your staff that you have to go, and we appreciate your willingness to return to discuss the main estimates in the next month.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Anytime. Thank you very much, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you very much.

Shall vote 1c under Communications Security Establishment carry?

COMMUNICATIONS SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT

Vote 1c—Program expenditures..........$1

(Vote 1c agreed to)

Shall vote 1c under National Defence carry?

NATIONAL DEFENCE

Vote 1c—Operating expenditures..........$143,330,098

(Vote 1c agreed to)

Shall the Chair report vote 1c under Communications Security Establishment and vote 1c under National Defence to the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, colleagues.

I look forward to the next opportunity to meet the ministers and staff.

The meeting is adjourned.