National Defence Committee on Oct. 4th, 2018

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I had some questions for Mr. Day, as well, but I think I have only about 30 seconds left, so I'll end it there. Maybe if there's time afterwards, I'll circle back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

That sounds good.

Professor Johnstone, can you hear me now?

[Ian Johnstone]

Yes, I can hear you.

Can you hear me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Yes, we can hear you now.

Committee members, he's here by telephone only, so you won't see him. However, he's still there.

What we'll probably do, given the time that we have left.... I know there are people here who are going to want to ask you some questions. We have, obviously, a portion of your testimony already. Would you be so kind as to submit to the committee what you were about to say but were unable to due to the poor connection? I'd like to continue on with questions if that's okay with you.

[Ian Johnstone]

I'd be happy to do that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

With that, I will turn the floor over to MP Martel.

[Richard Martel, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC]

My question is going to be in French. It's for Ms. Ameerah Haq.

You said earlier that training is very important.

What could we do to improve training? Is it simply a question of money?

You said that such training is very important. What would you suggest to improve it further?

[Ameerah Haq]

Thank you for that important question. It's something that I think all of us here who are appearing before you feel is a very important element. I want to give you two examples.

When we took over from the African Union, both in Darfur and in Mali, one of the things that struck us was the lack of training as we were moving to get those troops into UN peacekeeping. With regard to this transfer of troops and vetting of troops in terms of training, of those already in theatre in Darfur and in Mali, number one, we found a lot of child soldiers among those troops. Number two, also, was just the level of operations for those troops. It was a very difficult vetting process of letting troops go and then trying to find troops who would meet the UN standards.

One thing is that there are different bilateral and other international programs of bringing troops into many countries, where they are operating in these kinds of theatres, up to capacity. As we've talked more about partnerships with regional organizations, we want to make sure those troops have that capacity. One is operational and tactical, with all the kinds of training that goes along with those.

The second is that by participating in UN peacekeeping, the troops then need more training on the very important elements of understanding human rights and understanding issues related to gender and other things, which the United Nations provides for pre-deployment of troops. The United Nations obviously can't go to every single peacekeeping institute where troops are being prepared for United Nations deployment, so that kind of training, on a bilateral basis or with other partners from that context, is also important, to bring their capacities up.

When we talk with our force commanders, they tell us about certain deficiencies, which are sometimes quite basic. Even though we have standards and even though we feel we meet those standards, there is still a very important element for, as I said, tactical/operational, human rights, and gender sensitivity, and then also important elements like strategic planning. We talk over and over again since force commanders and contingent commanders are sometimes worlds apart in terms of bringing this whole deployment into one strategic plan. It is important for those officers to have these planning capabilities.

Let me say that all facets of planning are required, and there is absolutely a dearth, I think, of well-honed capacity in the troops we get in the United Nations. I saw that four years ago, and I can be quite confident that the world hasn't changed within those four years, so I think that need for training still exists.

[Richard Martel]

Thank you.

My question is for Mr. Adam Day.

Since the start of the mission in Mali, do you think there has been any progress on peace or stability?

I would like to hear your thoughts on this as regards the mission in Mali.

[Adam Day]

Thanks very much, Mr. Martel.

One quick note: I was never deployed in Mali, so these are observations from the outside.

I think the security situation in Mali tends to ebb and flow, and there have been some gains by the military component of MINUSMA in some of the areas where it's deployed around places like Tessalit, Kidal and some of those more eastern points.

I think one of the other gains is also in terms of regional involvement. The deployment of the G5 Sahel has brought key regional member states into the commitment to solve the issues in Mali. I think that, in and of itself, is an important development.

The UN Secretary-General's reports talk about gains on the civilian protection side as well over the last couple of years. I don't know how sustainable they are. Mali is a very big place.

In terms of the political process, that's a more difficult one. My understanding is that the political progress with the so-called compliant armed groups has reached a set of commitments that are gradually being implemented. One of the challenges of Mali is, obviously, that there are two different sets of groups. One set is involved in the political process and the other one is excluded from it by being called a terrorist armed group. I think one of the challenges for the mission going forward will be addressing those groups in a sustainable way.

It's possible that Richard may have some views on this as well.

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We'll have to circle back on that. If you have other things to add, maybe another member will pick up on that idea, but I'm going to give the floor to MP Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to Ms. Haq on the question of training.

We often talk about training in very general terms. I risk asking you a question to which you'll answer, “all of the above”, but when we're talking about a Canadian contribution to training, are we talking about developing training materials? Are we talking about bilateral training missions? Are we talking about providing trainers to the UN? At what level do you see Canada's contribution in terms of training being most effective?

[Ameerah Haq]

I'm really going to have to say all of the above—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Ameerah Haq]

—but let me tell you, on pre-deployment training, as I said, it's impossible for the UN to send trainers to every troop deployment. I talked about this when I was in DFS. If we could get trainers.... I think Canada has a very nice program where you utilize retired.... I forget the name of that program, but we've used it. We could send them out, particularly when we are entering into a partnership, as Adam said, with respect to Mali, and we know we're working in parallel with another troop deployment. That could be done through UN auspices. You'll have to speak to my colleagues now in DPKO and DFS and others. If we could send out more people to pre-deployment training, that would be of great value. That could be done.

The second is the training in theatre. The UN has a training unit in every single mission. There again, I think it's important that as we have specific courses, perhaps you can work closely with the training unit to see where Canada could have special input, as I said earlier, particularly in relation to community policing and things like protection of civilians. A number of troops coming from certain countries just do not have an inherent socialization toward those kinds of issues, but Canada does. When I worked in East Timor, we worked very closely with the Australian and New Zealand troops on those kinds of issues.

Those are specific skills which again, you could bring to bear in pre-deployment, in theatre and the reiteration of that. You have very high standards on sexual exploitation and abuse. Again, those need reinforcing. Then, of course, there is whatever is done on bilateral or other organizational ways. The EU provided a lot of training to the troops that were going into the UNOSOM operation in Somalia.

I think you could come in at many different levels.

There are training materials but, as I said, sometimes I feel we're a little behind. Again, things may have changed, but I always felt that.... Now so much is available. I think bringing in some kind of technological innovation and access of information to troops, and using better technology is also a potential area of support.

Thank you.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Okay.

I want to turn to our guests from the United Nations University and ask a question, without trying to make it very loaded, about the absence of the Pearson peacekeeping centre in Canada now. Has the closure of that centre left gaps that could be filled again in Canada, or are those functions of research and training being fulfilled elsewhere since the closure?

[Richard Gowan]

I do not think that Canada suffers from a shortage of researchers focusing on peacekeeping. You generate quite a lot of them. However, I think it is true to say that the Pearson centre, like other centres in Sweden and Germany, played an important role in linking research to policy-making, to training. It's value was precisely as an institute that brought together not merely researchers, but also practitioners, and could provide training.

I think for all the reasons we've already discussed, improving peacekeeping training is a very important task, and a centre like Pearson can add a great deal of value on that front, so we do miss it.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Mr. Day, do you have anything to add to Ms. Haq's comments on training? You emphasized training as part of your introductory remarks. Do you have anything to add to her remarks on that?

[Adam Day]

I think she certainly covered it. In my experience, interoperability is an important issue for new troops coming in. Often it's that moment when you have a troop-contributing country that isn't used to operating alongside some of the more developed countries. Having some training in interoperability and coordination with them has had a lot of impact. I think that is worth specifying.

I'll leave it there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I notice the clock is approaching noon here in Ottawa. I believe that Ms. Haq and Mr. Johnstone have to leave around now.

I just want to thank you. Stay as long as you like, but if you have to leave, I want to recognize your appearance here and thank you for your contribution.

Mr. Johnstone, I'd remind you to submit the remarks that you were unable to deliver today to the committee. We would appreciate that.

[Ian Johnstone]

Yes, I'll do that.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

Before we go to five minutes, we have one more seven-minute question.

We'll go to MP Robillard. The floor is yours.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

My question was for Madam Haq.

[A voice]

She just left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

You have a couple of other choices there.