National Defence Committee on Nov. 8th, 2018

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I just want to make sure that even during the statements we provide accurate information to you so that the context is given to you, and we don't want any falsehoods to be left on the table either.

You were talking about ATIPs. First of all, our government has made it very clear that we want to be open and transparent so that Canadians can have a better look at how their government functions and how the expenditures are done. With regard to your question, ATIPs work not in terms of a question; ATIPs function in terms of the amount of time and information required. From that, somebody can glean the information in terms of how they want to drive that information.

In terms of the information provided, we have provided multiple pieces of information. We had a significant backlog of ATIPs, which we are trying to deal with, but one thing—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

This wasn't a backlog. This was a statement that your office put out about the cost of the flight. It said it was $15,000. It was signed off by Byrne Furlong. I assume that you approved that before he signed off—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

ATIPs and the questions are different things.

We want to make sure we provide accurate information—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

But you missed the marks—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

ATIPs are...don't provide the necessary structure to do just that. When it comes to the actual flight, first of all I want to say directly that any type of behaviour that was taken, we take that thing very seriously. We have not only looked into this in a very aggressive manner, but also taken action on this.

We have been very clear in terms of the information that we want to provide, making sure that it is as accurate as possible.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Well, we question the accuracy because the story has been changing over the last eight months.

Did you or Chris Henderson, your ADM for public affairs, approve a statement that suggested that the level of drinking on the VIP party flight resembled that of a commercial flight? When you see the video, it sure doesn't look like any commercial flight I've ever been on.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The Team Canada concept, as you would know from your time as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence, is done for increasing morale. At the same time, regardless of what is done, we have committed to very high standards in the environment of the Canadian Armed Forces.

When this was—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Does that high standard result in our planes getting soaked in booze and urine? This was a real debacle that happened. It was debauchery.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

So—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Were you briefed, Minister, on the sexual assault that happened on that flight?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When this was discovered, not only—

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, is this related to the supplementary estimates (A)?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Yes, we're talking about Latvia. We're talking about morale, and we're talking about Operation Honour, which the minister mentioned. This is about Operation Honour, so I can.... There has been a cover-up going on by the department and by the minister's office, and if the Liberals at the committee here want to try to cover up the sexual assault that occurred on that flight, then I leave that to you guys to—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Actually, I'm happy to take on this question. The point that you raised.... One thing I can assure everybody on this committee is that we have an absolute, aggressive zero tolerance policy on this. When this was discovered, we conducted the appropriate investigations to find out exactly what happened.

We have now gleaned on the lessons, and I'm looking forward to the findings on this from the chief of the defence staff. Team Canada has been suspended until this time, but one thing is very important: A culture like this is not created overnight when it comes to Operation Honour. It had started some time ago. This is something that we, as a government, have taken very seriously, from the Prime Minister down to me and the leadership you see here. We will continue to aggressively deal with this and make sure that we create an environment such that every Canadian Forces member, when they join, has the opportunity to reach their full potential.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mrs. Gallant, go ahead.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

As a point of clarification, was that a yes or a no?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Time's up.

MP Garrison, go ahead.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and officials for being here with us again.

I think it is appropriate that you're here during Remembrance Week, and I'd like to take this opportunity, as others have done, not only to thank veterans but to thank those who are currently serving for their service.

I find that there are some good things in the supplementary estimates. In particular, I am very pleased to see the additional funding for the military family resource centres, which I know do a fabulous job in my riding at CFB Esquimalt and across the country. It's almost a cliché to say that it's not just the member who serves but the family, and I'm glad to see us doing more to resource those services and families. Thank you for that, Minister.

I'm also glad to see the provision for compensation for those LGBQT2 service members who were prejudicially treated pre-1992. However, what I see here, based on the class action lawsuit, is a very narrow approach to that problem.

In November 2016, this committee made a request to the minister to authorize the revision of service records, a separate issue from the compensation, so that the service of those members who were kicked out could be recognized as honourable. We had the military ombudsman here before the committee. He said that, on request, he would be able to deal with those if he was authorized by the minister.

I'm asking you today to go beyond the class action lawsuit and follow the advice of this committee, which was unanimous, to revise the service records to recognize as honourable the service of those who were kicked out.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I want to thank you for your tireless work on this. I want you to know that we not only fully agree, but we are working toward making sure that we are righting a historical wrong. It's not just about the apologies, but that we continue through with the requests that were made.

In terms of how we're going about this, it's very important to note that the final settlement agreement that we follow is what was agreed upon. That's what, from the class action lawsuit, the plaintiffs themselves have agreed to. We need to follow that. That's very important.

On the expungement process that we talked about, that process goes through a separate channel. Once it gets expunged, it comes back to us, and then it goes through the actual text of what's required that was actually agreed upon. That's also very important. At the end of the day, I need to make sure that we follow the final settlement agreement, because that was the agreement it was based on.

I do agree in terms of what you're saying when it comes to honourable discharge. That's exactly the whole spirit of this that we're trying to achieve here. Our team has been working on this, but we have to be able to meet our commitment to the final settlement agreement and the language that was agreed upon.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I agree with you that you have to meet those terms, but the class action lawsuit was the minimum the government agreed to, and what we're hearing from those who served is that the service record thing is important—not the compensation, not the money, but recognizing their honourable service. I am going to continue to come back to you and ask you this. Probably the simplest way is to authorize the military ombudsman, once the other things are done, to revise those service records. You're going to hear from me again in the future.

One of the good things in these estimates is the extension of Canada's commitment to the enhanced forward presence in Latvia. I was privileged to be part of this committee when we visited the troops there. I want to relate that to our visit to New York, where the committee met with the UN Department of Peacekeeping Operations and also UN missions associated with the Mali mission.

One of the things we heard there fairly consistently—I can't say from whom, because we were under the Chatham House Rule all the time—was that, now that Canada is there, we've taken the careful steps needed to get the mission up and running.

Will Canada consider staying a second year? One year is a fairly short deployment, given the effort we've made to get there, and it would mean some other country having to make a similar effort very soon to ramp up.

I'm asking whether you are actively considering extending our commitment to the Mali mission for another year.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you very much for that. It's a very important question.

In terms of a re-engagement, we've looked at the analysis. This is not strictly about what Canada can provide and offer.

The Prime Minister is very careful when he talks about multilateralism. We want to be a responsible coalition partner, whether it's part of countering ISIS, at NATO or at the United Nations. In this case, we did a very thorough analysis by talking not only to the United Nations, but also in meeting with some of the nations themselves and their leadership on what was needed.

There is a reason the smart pledging concept is important. This is not just about one or two years. This is about sustaining key capabilities for the long term.

As part of our commitment, we have not only offered this. This is about our doing our part, potentially, for other missions as well. The ultimate goal is making sure the mission itself is sustained. If we do not get into smart pledges, one nation will get burdened with this. In the past, capabilities for these missions were being lost or diminished. We want to make sure that the great work that's been happening on the ground can be sustained.

That's why this is done. This is not about one or two years. This is about creating the smart pledging concept and making it happen, which has worked well in other places.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

We very consistently heard that our contribution is welcome and it is the right contribution to this mission. We also heard there's a need for countries around the world to provide the diplomatic and political support to this mission in Mali, and that it is very much in the interest of everyone to make sure Mali does not collapse, in terms of human trafficking, weapons trafficking, drug trafficking—all the very negative international repercussions, not to mention the very severe repercussions on the civilian population of Mali.

I understand what you're saying to me, but I still think we promised a bit more than we appear to be delivering. By extending that, we would provide significant diplomatic and political support for the mission in Mali. I'm hoping you will consider a second year of that commitment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

I'm going to have to move on to the next speaker.

MP Fisher, go ahead.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Minister, for being here. It seems like the second time in about a month.

Deputy Minister, it's always great to be at the table with another Nova Scotian. Thank you and your team for being here. I appreciate it.

Minister, I'm interested in some of the more important capital projects we've been able to deliver on recently for the Canadian Armed Forces.

I don't need to tell you that Halifax Shipyard is right across the harbour from Dartmouth—Cole Harbour. As you also know, the steel for our wonderful AOPS is cut in Dartmouth. Shipbuilding is very important to my community.

I wonder if you could tell us a little more about the announcement you made last week in Halifax and its impact on the Canadian navy. Maybe you could touch on the naming and recent launching of the Harry DeWolf, its impact on our navy, and the next steps before it becomes operational.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The national shipbuilding strategy is extremely important to the Canadian Armed Forces, to our navy. It's extremely important to communities where the direct work is being conducted. There are also indirect benefits that it has had across Canada.

Every time I'm able to visit the shipyards, especially in Halifax, I get to see the workers directly. The pride that they have in their work is amazing, actually. There's ingenuity that they're bringing into place, in terms of having more women coming into those trades and having more indigenous people. I met one member of the union who gave me his poppy and talked about how he remembers the indigenous members of his family. That's the human aspect of what this actually delivers. In terms of the capability for the navy, it's tremendous.

I should go back, though, to when the defence policy was created, when we did the analysis. It's not about just saying what number we want. You have to be able to put the money behind it so that it can be sustained. That's something we committed to in the defence policy, to make sure that we're going to have five Arctic patrol ships, with the possibility of a sixth. We went through the analysis and then determined the right funding.

I was very proud to announce, on behalf of the government, that we will be having a sixth. The sixth provides the additional capability for us to do simultaneous operations on both coasts, while at the same time making sure that our ships have the proper maintenance cycles as well. It's a tremendous capability, and let's not forget that they're called “Arctic” for a reason. This sends a message to our northern Arctic communities about how Canada is serious about the communities that are up there and how they're going to be supported. We are serious about our Arctic sovereignty, and it sends a message to our allies that we will do our part for our own sovereignty. Let's not forget the message that it also sends to our adversaries about how seriously we'll be taking it.

The process is moving steadily along for the Canadian surface combatant as well, but let's not forget that all the investments that are being made into our navy through the national shipbuilding strategy, and the jobs they're creating, are part of a wider plan of making sure that Canada is not only able to support itself and to project properly when it comes to our sovereignty, but to do more.

At this time, we have 11 ships, either on operations or in training exercises. That is a significant accomplishment for our people in terms of what the navy is actually capable of doing. I'm very proud of the work of our women and men in the navy. I also acknowledge the tremendous pride that the workers at the Halifax Shipyard have put into this.