National Defence Committee on Nov. 8th, 2018

[Jody Thomas]

We welcome the reforms at the UN. The chief of the defence staff and I went to visit the UN in the spring, and I had quite a significant discussion about the reforms. It is interesting that they are aligning operations and policy, the two separate entities of the peace support operations, in order to facilitate getting troops on the ground, to move forward with operations and to make the process simpler. It's daunting to try to move an operation through the UN, and we're very supportive of what they are doing.

We're very proud of the work that's being done in Mali. We were able to move from the word go to being on the ground very quickly. I think that's a testament to the Canadian Armed Forces' agility and willingness to deploy as required.

Any reform within the UN that reduces the bureaucracy, reduces the time and reduces the complexity is a positive thing, from where we sit.

[LGen Paul Wynnyk]

Just to add very briefly to what the deputy minister mentioned, I think you are aware that as part of our permanent mission in New York we have a brigadier-general there who facilitates that planning. This will pick up the pace once again, as the deputy minister noted, to allow us to do tighter planning cycles and better contingency planning, so I think it's quite positive.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Operationally, how would the merger of the political and peacekeeping operational unit at the UN reflect itself in the work we do here, with respect to the foreign policy questions and the defence questions? Is that line now becoming more fluid? Is there even greater interdisciplinarity and greater departmental collaboration, especially in those cases where people are expecting early and quick action?

Many of us are getting emails from our constituents on the situation in Yemen. Hopefully, I'm going to have time to ask you a bit more broadly about the Middle East.

However, regarding this merger of political and peacekeeping ops at the UN, are there direct implications for how we structure ourselves here in Ottawa?

[Jody Thomas]

I actually think they are more reflecting our structure here.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Okay.

[Jody Thomas]

Any time we speak to the UN, we are hand in glove with the Department of Foreign Affairs, Global Affairs Canada. We do nothing without the Foreign Affairs direction, the armed forces policy team and, of course, the foreign policy experts from Global Affairs.

We commit and speak to the UN together. We're now speaking to the same people in the same room. Their structure reflects our structure.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Excellent. That's very good news. Thank you for putting that on the record.

I would like to go back to the question I asked earlier on the allotment of $53.8 million to the Department of Foreign Affairs by DND, the transfer in the supplementaries. From a defence perspective, I'd like to ask for your view on the Middle East, as it currently stands, and what evolutionary trajectories you see when you look at Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya and the constellation of powers around that. How does that affect your thinking, in terms of advance planning for potential Canadian support of peace operations in the Middle East?

As an adjunct to that question, do you see an opportunity for us to be active not only in Mali, but potentially in other future missions, such as Yemen, if and when the time is right for that?

[Jody Thomas]

Of course, in the Department of National Defence, we work with Foreign Affairs on the foreign policy direction they would like the Canadian Armed Forces to take. It goes without saying that we are very concerned about the situation in the Middle East, with Syria and Yemen of profound concern. Obviously, the photos that are coming out of Yemen are disturbing Canadians from coast to coast to coast.

We don't assert the direction that the Canadian Armed Forces should take in the operations. Of course, we await government direction and are ready to respond as required.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I'd like to shift gears for a minute and ask you about the well-being of members of the armed forces and also our veterans. At the introductory stage of this meeting, we made reference to the fact that we're entering Veterans' Week and that we are honouring the lives and service of our veterans.

Can you tell us about the joint suicide prevention strategy of the armed forces? Yesterday here on Parliament Hill we unveiled the maquette of Lieutenant-Colonel Sam Sharpe. Injuries sustained in battle are not always visible. Can you tell us what the armed forces are doing on this very pressing issue of suicide prevention?

[Jody Thomas]

I'd be very pleased to ask the commander of military personnel, General Lamarre, to speak to the suicide prevention strategy.

I'll preface it by saying it is joint with Veterans Affairs Canada. It is a ground-breaking document whereby we combine operational response, policy and science to try to understand the cultural tragedy that is suicide. We don't pretend we have all the answers. We are trying to understand, support and prevent, but I'll turn it over to General Lamarre.

[Lieutenant-General Charles Lamarre, Commander, Military Personnel Command, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

The joint suicide prevention strategy was issued a year ago. Since that time, the strategy has become a number of plans and concrete actions that are moving forward to help us deal with the situation.

First of all, we have 37 medical clinics across Canada, 31 of which are equipped with their own mental health professionals. Some of them are too small for that. However, we also have a network of over 4,000 physicians and mental health specialists in all fields and aspects, who are available to help our people specifically deal with that.

On top of that, we partner with various organizations—not only Veterans Affairs Canada, but outside organizations—to specifically address how we reduce the stigma of seeking help when you're dealing with mental health.

These put an emphasis on how we want to prevent suicide: training for individuals, resilience training for all sorts of specialist trades that are perhaps more exposed to things, but first and foremost making sure that care is available for the members and for their families in referring them to the right authorities and the right support networks to assist them along the way.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

MP Bezan, go ahead.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to touch quickly on the order for a new Arctic offshore patrol ship. My understanding from the media is that it's $800 million.

Is that substantially more than the cost of the ones in production right now?

[Jody Thomas]

We're very pleased this ship was ordered for the Royal Canadian Navy. As you know—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It exercises the option that was in the original contract.

[Jody Thomas]

It does, and it is very good news. ADM Pat Finn will get into the details for you, but as you know, as we're building ships, the costs decline as we go down the line of ships. Market variables play a role; the cost of steel is a prime example. That cost is an estimate at this time, but Pat can give you the details.

[Patrick Finn]

One of the things we're trying to do through ship six and beyond is the approach to the strategy, in this case how we take a more business approach to how we're building ships through the AOPS and into the surface combatants.

To your question, the sixth ship is approximately $400 million, which is continuing to see a reduction ship over ship in real dollars. A decision was made to extend the build period. We're going to make a point of stretching out the overall program for two years so we can maintain workforce and continuity in the yard.

Why is that? As we've implemented this strategy on both coasts and other work that we've done, a huge cost driver for us is labour and what the industry calls “green labour”, which is getting a workforce up and running in the context of a shipyard. We put in $150 million to wilfully stretch out the work, but at significant savings, to maintain the workforce for surface combatants.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Let me get this straight. Is the fifth ship estimated at $400 million?

[Patrick Finn]

The fifth ship is more than $400 million. The sixth ship is approximately $400 million, so it is lower in cost, but we're stretching out the whole program by an extra two years.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

That's adding cost to it, so if it's around $400 million per ship, and if $800 million is going to be the total cost of the last ship, why don't we just build two?

[Patrick Finn]

We're just delivering the first ship. We're moving to the drumbeat of a ship a year. It's drawing cost in ships two through six. The point is that, in the analysis we've done, not taking action, the delay in surface combatants, and the additional cost of green labour would be three-quarters of a billion dollars to $1 billion. We're trying to be much more rational in our strategy, in how we bring in and how we use the industry.

The additional $250 million does not go to the yard, so we're extending. There are project costs, and there are contingencies and other things we're setting aside, such as economic price adjustments around steel, and what could happen to labour costs. We create a reserve, which is the normal practice and what we do. For us, the $800 million is the overall project versus the contract.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you.

I'm going to switch gears, to Operation Impact. When we were working alongside the Kurdish peshmerga, we bought up some weapons that were going to be transferred to the Kurds, about a year and a half ago. They included things such as anti-tank missiles, sniper rifles, mortar systems and rocket-propelled grenades. What happened to that stock of weapons? They were stored in Jordan and in Montreal. Were they ever repurposed, or are they still collecting dust?

[Jody Thomas]

They have not been repurposed, to my knowledge.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Is there any money in the budget here to continue to work with and train the peshmerga in dealing with ISIS and the security in the region, under Operation Impact?