National Defence Committee on Dec. 4th, 2018

[Andriy Shevchenko]

By now we have hard data proving that there is a clear economic impact on Russia associated with the sanctions.

Yes, it's true that sanctions themselves are a limited tool, but I think they are extremely effective when they're combined with other forms of diplomatic pressure, and when they're combined with more military presence in the region.

As has been discussed today, I think we need to explore very specific sectors through which we can punish specific Russian individuals and also some specific sectors of the economy. I think the time has come to upgrade our sanctions, and I strongly believe they do work.

[Richard Martel]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Fisher, the floor is yours.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I thought Randall was up next.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here, first of all. I appreciate your being here, Your Excellencies.

We heard about election meddling, and I'm thinking about the election in Ukraine. What precautions is Ukraine taking to ensure that democracy is protected, and what international support might you perhaps need or request?

[Andriy Shevchenko]

There are some very practical steps that need to be taken. In terms of cybersecurity, it's extremely important to make sure that we can protect our equipment and our election infrastructure from interference. You know that Ukraine has been suffering a lot from very intense Russian attacks on our basic infrastructure. That includes nuclear plants and our other capabilities, so in 2019 it will be extremely important to protect the election infrastructure.

Second, I think we should be very serious about their interference in the media environment and in social media, and by now we already know a lot about the ways they operate. I think the next year will provide us with a lot of new material to analyze and to fight against.

Again, I would like to encourage Canada and our other western partners to learn from our experience. You'll help us and you will help yourself.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

The misinformation war that Russia wages, has that already begun? Has it been non-stop for the last several years, and do you feel that Ukraine is, I guess, for lack of a better term, winning or at least understanding their misinformation war?

[Andriy Shevchenko]

The information war that Russia has been waging is not about Ukraine. They fight this war against you. They fight this war against the free world. Even here, on this wonderful Canadian soil, you have seen Russian information attacks based on specific individuals, based on groups of people. In general, they were targeted into the Canadian system.

I think there is a good chance we will see more of those kinds of activities in the next year, which is an election year. I think there is a risk they will try to interfere with some specific ridings and will try to influence the results of the elections there.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

I think Mr. Wrzesnewskyj had asked a question and hadn't gotten an answer. Perhaps he would like to use the time now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We have about two and a half minutes left.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Perfect.

Ambassador, would you like to respond to the question about the fourth Geneva convention and the grave breaches that have been committed by Russia, and whether Ukraine intends to bring to trial those who ordered the abduction of the Ukrainian sailors?

[Andriy Shevchenko]

Yes, legal actions will be taken. I do not know all the details and I cannot share all of the ones I do know, but it has been said by Ukrainian Minister of Foreign Affairs Klimkin that Ukraine is preparing legal actions against Russia on this specific case.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In regard to the sectoral sanctions, Novorossiysk is a very significant export port for Russia. It's controlled or owned by Transneft and Summa Group, and the group of oligarchs who control them, especially with Transneft. Do you think specific sanctions would be effective against the corporate owners and the oligarchs who own the corporate entities that control those two ports that I mentioned earlier?

I'll leave it at that for now.

[Andriy Shevchenko]

Yes, I think we should look into this. We should understand that Russia has done a lot to limit or block other nations from normal commercial activities in the Black Sea region. I think we need to make sure that they will pay their price for this. Also, I think of all the Russian ships that illegally go to the Crimean ports, that illegally operate across the Black Sea and the Azov sea. I think we should make it extremely toxic for anyone to co-operate with them and I think we should consider closing European and international ports to those Russian boats that violate international law.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

That's your time.

I'm going to move the last formal question to Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to continue on sanctions for a moment there. Ambassador Shevchenko, you said that sanctions were starting to have an economic cost in Russia. Mr. Wrzesnewskyj has given us some specific examples. What was your government thinking about when it called for strengthened sanctions? What did it actually have in mind?

[Andriy Shevchenko]

There are several specific sectors of the Russian economy that should be considered. I'll go back to the recommendations by the Atlantic Council, which were mentioned here. They specifically encouraged western powers to think of major Russian banks, which are crucial for the Russian economy and which some people in the Putin circle have a lot of personal interest in.

Second, I would think about the sanctions connected to the Russian commercial activities in the Black Sea region. Also, I would explore all the opportunities that the Magnitsky act of Canada provides us with.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Great. Thank you.

I know there's very little time but I want to come back to Georgia for just a second, and as Mr. Spengemann does, recognize the contribution that Georgia has made as an ally of NATO and Canada.

I'm wondering if there are ways in which Canada can do more to help strengthen that NATO integration preparation, I guess I'll call it, for Georgia. Are there things we could be doing now that would assist Georgia in that?

[Konstantine Kavtaradze]

I thank you for the question, because after the meeting I will be leaving for Saint-Jean military college, where the Georgian officers are. They go on courses within MTCP, the military training and co-operation program of Canada. We are really grateful for that. About 72 Georgian servicemen, servicewomen and civilians have already either undergone different types of courses or it's planned that they will be invited.

Canada is already part of Georgia-NATO co-operation. It's called “SNGP”, a substantial package of Georgia-NATO co-operation. Canada has already assigned one expert on aviation. We really appreciate that. Now we are considering Canada's involvement in the foreign-language courses for the Georgian military who are preparing for international peacekeeping missions.

In a sense, then, Canada is already part of it. We were invited by the Department of National Defence to participate in Maple Arch exercises together with Ukrainians. We will be part of that. From our side, we invited Canada to be part of the Georgia-NATO joint military exercises that we have annually on the soil of Georgia.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

Given the time we have remaining and the number of MPs who want to continue asking questions, I'd like us to move to four-minute questions. Thank you to everyone for their patience and discipline so far, but we'll have to be extremely disciplined on this next one to get everyone through in the time we have remaining.

I'll yield the floor to MP Dzerowicz.

You have four minutes, please.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple more questions. Thank you again.

You know, just listening to the conversation today, to my mind, it sounds like.... I'm trying to figure out what the endgame is for Russia and what they're trying to achieve. It seems as though they're trying to cause quite a bit of havoc in the region. Whether they're in the U.K., whether they're in Canada, whether it's through cybersecurity, or whether it's through elections, what is their endgame? What are they trying to do? Are they just supposed to be the bad boy of the world? What is it that you think might be their endgame?

Maybe I'll start off with you, Ambassador Shevchenko. Then I'd like to hear opinions from the other two ambassadors.

[Andriy Shevchenko]

When it comes to Canada, I think there are a couple of threats. First, Russia clearly wants to destabilize the international order. I think their signal with all of this action is very clear: We do not care what you think about this; we are going to do what we want to do.

Yes, they want to destabilize the existing international system. I think they're also seeking new ways to influence politics from within western societies.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you.

Perhaps we could hear from Moldova.

[Ala Beleavschi]

For me, the endgame is that Russia simply wants to maintain control and keep the countries of the former Soviet Union in their sphere of influence. They are doing everything for this.

Moldova has its parliamentary elections next February. Our elections will come a little earlier than the presidential elections in Ukraine. We see the “activation”, if I may use this word, of the Russians' presence in Moldova, be it in the media or be it in trying to influence the politics. Cleary, Russia is aspiring to bring pro-Russian forces into the Moldovan government. Then, perhaps, they will also try to push again to revitalize their plan for federalization of the country, which will give them full control of Moldova's foreign policy priorities.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

The last word goes to Georgia.

[Konstantine Kavtaradze]

Russian intellectuals in the 19th century were asking what Russia wants, and we are asking the same question today.

I'd like to refer to my opening statement. In order to understand what is happening in Russia now, we have to understand the mindset of the political elite there. President Putin said that the fall of the Soviet Union was the greatest catastrophe. He was referring to the Soviet Union that killed almost 20 million of its own people. The issue is that Russia tries to reincarnate this old Soviet pride, in a sense, but without having the means to achieve it. That's why we have this pattern of behaviour.

Once again, thank you very much for inviting us here, because at least we can try to show our perspective. It's very important to see patterns, not just in order to cope with existing challenges but also to predict, in a sense, and analyze how Russia might act. It's not about good guys and bad guys.

For example, Russian propaganda doesn't work in Georgia. Seventy per cent of Georgians are pro-NATO and 80% are steadily pro-EU. The issue is that undermining western institutions directly affects Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova. That's why we need you and the western institutions to be strong. That's why we have this interconnection.