National Defence Committee on April 11th, 2019

[LGen Charles Lamarre]

I would like to add to that. Coming back to the meme that is circulating, of course, all those people who might have different careers, they all get the same pay. It's always been that way and it continues to be because we're conscious of not having any of those barriers, but thank you for your words.

I'll talk first of all about recruiting. We had three OAG reports that told us that we had to get better at recruiting. We took them seriously. We've created Operation Generation. Operation Generation is a very specific operation, on a yearly cycle, for domestic operations. I'm the supporting commander and I get access to the resources of the environments to come and get us to do this. Specifically we're going after the groups that we want to come and bring their talent to the forces.

You're going to see that in the fall. There's going to be a ship, probably HMCS Saint John, with a helicopter deck on board. They'll do a Great Lakes cruise and they'll go specifically to those areas along the Great Lakes, all the way down to Toronto and past there. We're going to go and attract people, to come and see what it is we're doing.

First and foremost, because we want to get those specialties into our ships, we'll make sure that the audiences we're bringing in to meet the ships, meet the crews and everything else will include women and visible minorities, so they can themselves get a chance to do a hands-on.

Oftentimes, the challenge comes down to letting people know what the opportunity is. That's why we have to focus a lot more on letting them know. To that end, we have created, again as part of the response to the OAG report, a new website for recruiting. I encourage you to go and see it at forces.ca. In there we emphasize that this is an organization that will accept any and all Canadians who want to serve. We make it very visible, not only in the imagery but in the explanation, and we demystify things that in the past have traditionally stopped people from joining.

How do you do the PFT test? This seemed to be something that caused people to self-select out of the process. They can see how it's done and realize just how well they can do it. With a number of women doing the test, they can actually see that they are good to go.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I'll just stop you there.

I want to go to Dr. Preston and Commodore Patterson.

I would ask the same question of you. I will start by acknowledging again that there's a problem with sexual misconduct. I think that's an important step. What are the barriers you see right now in combatting the persistence of the problem? What is it that is needed at this point to make more progress?

[Denise Preston]

I think that we need to continue to make very clear progress on the OAG recommendations, for example. I think that we need to do a better job of marketing the good-news stories and the progress we are making. We certainly see this reality at our centre. What most people hear about are the negative stories, the things that have gone wrong and the people whose situations have not been adequately addressed. Those cases absolutely exist and they need to be better addressed.

We also have the benefit of hearing some of the positive stories where people say “you've met my needs, this has been resolved, I'm pleased with the outcome”. I think perhaps we need a better public awareness campaign. Absolutely, as General Wynnyk said, the forces don't have it right yet. There's still a lot of work to be done in terms of policy, in terms of structures and in terms of enhancing support. All of that needs to be put in place as a priority.

[Commodore Rebecca Patterson, Director General, Canadian Armed Forces Strategic Response Team – Sexual Misconduct, Department of National Defence]

To pull that out a little bit further, one of our challenges is that we end up having to translate this expert advice into a tool that military members can actually use. Of course, we both focus on what this is really about, which is members of the Canadian Armed Forces. It's a very different way of thinking because we're very used to thinking in a very operational way, where we look at the outcome and then we put little pieces in between it.

Now we're looking at the behavioural aspects of what we're doing. The challenge is even in reshaping our thinking. I come from a health care background where we thought about people-centred pieces. I'm translating this and creating a military tool. It takes time. You can't buy time. It is what it is. It's that feeling of that pressing need to support those who are responding to it or being affected by it on a day-to-day basis. The challenges are time and translating this expert advice into what will work in the Canadian Armed Forces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to have to end it there and move on to the next speaker.

MP Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you all for being with us again. I appreciate that much of the interest is in the area of sexual misconduct.

I wanted to just sort of round out our conceptualization of diversity and inclusion. On a previous occasion, I had a chance to ask about second or third careers for people later on in life to join the Canadian Armed Forces. I think the answer was quite comforting: There are avenues for people to join not only right out of university, college or even high school but later on, after a successful career elsewhere.

I want to ask a question about Canadians with disabilities. To what extent are the Canadian Armed Forces currently a career option for Canadians with diagnosed disabilities? I'm thinking of things like autism, Down's syndrome, epilepsy and perhaps even blindness. Are there thought projects under way to increase inclusiveness for those persons through career paths in the Canadian Forces?

[LGen Charles Lamarre]

We have just released a DAOD, which is a departmental administrative order and directive, that talks about disabilities. We do have some folks with disabilities in the Canadian Armed Forces. Those are related mainly to how they learn, for example. Also, as you all know, if we have members who have been injured in operations—we've had quite a few who have successfully carried on, including people who have returned to active duty and to theatres of operations with prosthetic limbs and the like. Those are ways in which we do that, and we accommodate those types of individuals because, of course, there's value to doing that.

What we do have, however, is the concept that I've called universality of service. It is the aspect that gives us the right to not necessarily have the duty to accommodate in certain areas. The reason for that is that it's been proven in certain cases that there is a bona fide operational requirement for people to be able to do certain things.

For example, you need to be able to carry a load and to be mobile in order to help extricate somebody from a situation—it might be a burning vehicle, a damaged vehicle, a ship that's suffered something, an aircraft—and all of those things have been recognized by the courts to say that these are bona fide operational requirements. Somebody who showed up at a recruiting centre in a wheelchair, for example, would not be able to do those things. There's a recognition that the kind of duty that we perform is so demanding that you're going to be in combat at some point potentially in your career, and you need to be able to do these things because it's not only yourself at that point; it's also the rest of your team. We have been given that.

Universality of service calls upon you to maintain that capability throughout your career and to prove that you can. We sometimes make accommodations for folks who can't anymore, and those will be for a specific set period of time. That's either to get them ready to go back in if they can rehabilitate or, if they cannot, to enable them to do a proper transition. They then have the advantage of our transition group and that can be a process that can take up to six years depending on their desire to keep on working and whether or not we have a position for which, for example, we know they would not be required to go and deploy in an operational environment. We try to do that for as long as we can keep them.

In the cases of autism and everything else like that, folks have to pass a Canadian Forces aptitude test. It is a timed test that gives us an indication of the cognitive abilities of the individual, and their ability to learn. That's really what it comes down to because that's an important aspect. In a learning organization such as ours, people need to be able to understand and to comprehend complex weapons systems or procedures, so that we can then conduct operations.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

General Wynnyk.

[LGen Paul Wynnyk]

To build on what General Lamarre said in addressing your question, I would add that we are very much looking, in the future, at adapting these different policies and perhaps having different standards of universality of service.

One of the organizations that work for me is working on something called force mix and structure design, which is really an evaluation of the structure of the Canadian Forces, in terms of whether it is relevant to the 21st century as we go forward and in terms of the actual design of units. A component of that is asking the very question that you asked, whether everybody needs to meet the same standard, because different jobs require different standards of fitness.

General Vance would be the very first to say, and he may have said it in front of this committee, that you don't need to be 10 feet tall and 250 pounds for every job in the Canadian Armed Forces. This is very applicable as we look at some of the new trades and occupations that are coming online. Cyber is one example, and the cyberwarrior of the future may not have to be trained to the same level nor be as fit as the infantry soldier. To what degree we can accommodate some of the disabilities that you've mentioned, I'll be frank, we don't know right now, but we're certainly exploring that as we go forward.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

It's encouraging to hear your openness on that. It's very helpful. Thank you so much.

My second question, and I may have a chance to go back in the next round, is about the concept of culture. I had an exchange with Madam Justice Deschamps on that issue. To what extent do you think the concept of culture is a hindrance to the work that we're doing, not on criminal behaviour like sexual assault but on sexual misconduct? Culture doesn't exist independently of any one person's behaviour or actions. It's not something that floats around on its own. It's people-related. Is it a concept that people hide behind and slow down because they can say, “There's a culture of misconduct. It's going to take time to change”? We celebrate culture in other contexts as a very positive thing. In the context of sexual misconduct, it's something negative. Is there a way to transcend and move beyond it in order to solve the issue more quickly?

[LGen Paul Wynnyk]

I'll begin, and perhaps ask Dr. Preston at the end if she has anything to add.

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that we have a culture of sexual misconduct within the Canadian Forces. The vast majority of members of the Canadian Forces feel as passionately about this as we do—

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

But the problem is cultural in nature. I wasn't going to say there's a pervasive culture, but as far as the problem is concerned, there's a cultural dimension.

[LGen Paul Wynnyk]

Well, there is. What we have to do is effect cultural change as we go forward. Of course, that's probably one of the most difficult things you do in any organization because that's changing attitudes and beliefs.

The first part of Operation Honour was essentially ordering people not to do bad things. I read Sandra Perron's testimony, and completely agree with what she said.

I could come back to that later.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, General.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I know some of us have two, three or four devices. This is just a general reminder to members to make sure they're on silent. I would appreciate that.

I'm going to turn the floor over to MP Dzerowicz for a five-minute round.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. I have turned off my sound. Thank you for the reminder. It's always me.

Thank you so much for your interesting presentations. Thank you to many of you for coming back.

I'm going to start off with you, Lieutenant-General Wynnyk. You have indicated that we've not made sufficient progress in key areas. You said we have to push harder. You have identified some new steps.

How are you convinced that this route is going to lead to progress where before you were deficient in your progress? What makes you so sure that the steps you put in place are actually going to get us further than where we are now?

[LGen Paul Wynnyk]

I think it's a very good question.

The immediate phase one of Operation Honour—and this is my terminology and no one else's—was to address the problem right away. That was once again to implement the duty to report. We understand that has had some perhaps negative ramifications in some cases, but it was to actually physically stop, where possible, sexual misconduct, heighten the awareness of sexual misconduct, and put in place mechanisms to deal with it.

But what we didn't put in place is the cultural change model that we have been talking about just recently, which is to change those beliefs and attitudes.

I think we've reached a bit of an inflection point with the feedback we've received from our own internal assessment of the report from the Office of the Auditor General, so I'm confident now that we've entered a new phase. It's the beginning of a new phase where we have to look at coming up with a cultural change strategy. It will be informed by Dr. Preston. As Commodore Patterson mentioned, she's working on it right now to actually come up with, amongst many things, lines of effort and different ways to address this, and to measure it as we go forward.

What we found is the only way to measure cultural change in any aspect, not just sexual misconduct, is through anonymous surveys. We've only done one. We've administered a second one. We expect the results in May. That will be the true measure, quite frankly, of whether we're having success or not.

I can speculate, but we are putting performance measurement in place against which we can benchmark.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I appreciate that. Cultural change is just one. You have mentioned seven areas where there are deficiencies. I do want to point that out.

I don't know why it is, but for 20 or 25 years I've had to deal with the issue of the progress of women and sexual assault of women in different areas that I've had to work in. I found the model that works is leadership at the top incentives and accountability for the senior leadership team, establish base data and a way to measure progress, and then transparency and reporting. I hear some aspects of it, but I don't hear that model here.

On leadership at the top, I think we've established the problem has been recognized. I've mentioned incentives before. I think if we really want to push harder...I'm not seeing how that is actually going to ensure that we are going to achieve progress.

I know we can't have the same incentives as maybe the business world, where we can give bonuses, and people are evaluated and given more money, but maybe incentives could be provided. You don't progress in terms of your career if you're not achieving certain objectives that you're trying to achieve at a particular stage.

I would love to hear a little more about maybe some incentives, if there has been some thought to them, because I'm not sure we'll actually see the progress that we would love to be able to see unless we actually provide those types of incentives and accountability from the senior leadership team.

You talked a bit about the base data and having some difficulty even gathering some of that data, and then still trying to find a way to measure it.

Maybe I will pause here. I'm not sure who wants to address it, but I do have another seven minutes so I will be continuing with this line as we move forward.

Who wants to address that?

[LGen Paul Wynnyk]

I'll start, and then perhaps Dr. Preston and everybody else can join in.

I completely agree with the points you've raised. Quite frankly, we're in the process of tackling them and thinking about them right now. In terms of leadership at the top, I agree that it's not just a matter of pushing harder, but I have to be very frank. When we're looking at general officers, it takes about 30 years to grow a general officer. This is not something where you can pull somebody up from 20 years or 30 years ago.

There are exceptions, but on average, when you become a brigadier general or a commodore, you're at the 27- to 31-year point. We've reached down very far to ensure that we're providing opportunities for all minority groups in the Canadian Forces, and I include women in there because they are in a minority percentage-wise. The chain of command is being held accountable to make sure we're examining every individual, to make sure we're not necessarily privileging them, because it is a meritocracy and it has to be a meritocracy, but that the same opportunities are afforded to everybody as they go forward.

The chain of command is being held accountable to that. There is complete buy-in, in the chain of command, that we need to do better and that we need to increase the proportion of not only women, but visible minorities as well across the Canadian Armed Forces.

In terms of measuring, I completely agree. We've only recently started collecting a lot of that data. OPHTAS just came online in October or September. That is new, and that is bespoke.

We are in the process of taking that limited data that we have and looking at ways of integrating that database with the military police database and a number of other databases, but respecting confidentiality all the way. That is in no way connected to the database that Dr. Preston maintains, because we need to maintain that independence.

We have to get better. We know that. We think we have a plan in place there.

Dr. Preston, do you want to add anything?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Briefly, please. We're getting close to the time.

[Denise Preston]

The only thing I would add is that you're right that culture and leadership are important. Those are critical organizational factors that relate to sexual harassment in the workplace. However, there are a number of other factors that are related as well.

For example, we can't lose sight of who the individuals are who are committing this type of behaviour, because the fact is, the majority of people exist within this sexualized culture and don't behave in this way. There are things that are different between people who choose to behave in this way and people who don't. Therefore, we need to do a better job of looking at individuals.

One of the other things that the forces have done that will be positive, other than looking at culture change, is that they recognized that they have failed to appropriately take into consideration expert advice in terms of guiding and developing their strategy. It was very much developed within CAF without that expert advice. Now they've recognized that, so further responsibilities are coming over to our centre.

The other thing is that one of our responsibilities will be to monitor how CAF is doing, so there is that type of oversight function as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

MP Martel.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Good afternoon.

I live in Saguenay, in a region. Often the reality of regions is different from the reality of major centres. We have little diversity, few cultural minorities, compared to what we see in the Canadian population in general. CFB Bagotville is the third largest employer in the region. We also have two reserve units. A lot of kids are fascinated by the idea of a career in the Canadian Armed Forces. They are also fascinated by drones.

I would like to know whether there is a plan to study the differences and adjust the recruitment objectives according to the communities where the units are stationed, in particular the reserve units.

[LGen Paul Wynnyk]

I'll begin, and then perhaps General Lamarre might want to address that.

Once again, I can speak from my experience as the former army commander. I widely recognize the diversity across Canada, the diversity in different types of units and the population bases from which they draw.

There is no move afoot, nor do I think there ever will be, to come up with diversity quotas in particular areas. With regard to women, absolutely we will continue to push forward. We've set a goal of 25%, but in more homogenous areas, particularly in the Saguenay, as you've mentioned....

Quite frankly, it's impossible to impose a quota on visible minorities or anything such as that, nor would we as we go forward.

What we're trying to do is make sure we're representative of Canadian society writ large and the communities in which we live. To contrast that, if we were looking at Toronto or Vancouver where we have large populations of visible minorities and they constitute in some areas the majority, we would like to reflect that composition in our units because we're a reflection of Canadian society.

General Lamarre might or might not want to add anything to that.

[LGen Charles Lamarre]

Yes, thank you very much. That is an interesting question.

The army is the service that employs most reservists in the Canadian Armed Forces. The Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff was the former army commander. One of the things he did during his mandate was to work to increase the number of reservists. The initiative was very successful. During that time, a full-time employment program was established. It is very popular. Last year, we hoped to be able to fill about 80% of the available positions, but we achieved more than 100%, in the sense that we had people on a waiting list. So the program will be in place again this year.

In the places with visible minorities—Vancouver, for example—a lot of units reflect the population. The Vice-Chief mentioned this previously but, in Vancouver, the second service battalion is based in a community that is almost entirely of Chinese origin. Eighty per cent of the personnel in the unit, therefore, have come from the Chinese community. It is interesting to see. We feel that it reflects the Canadian population. We anticipate many units of that kind in the future. In Toronto, we are also seeing units beginning to reflect the way in which our population is changing and becoming established. That is what we want to see and increasingly become the norm in the regular forces of the CAF. We really want the people of Canada to be represented when we deploy overseas.