Evidence of meeting #22 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was navy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ken Hansen  Science Advisory Committee Member, Institute for Ocean Research Enterprise, As an Individual
Commodore  Retired) Eric Lerhe (Centre for the Study of Security and Development, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Good day, everybody. Welcome to our study on the naval readiness of Canada. I'd like to welcome our two witnesses today. From Halifax, we have Mr. Ken Hansen, thank you for coming to us today by teleconference, and in committee today, in person, is retired commodore Eric Lerhe. Thank you for being here.

Each of you gentleman will be given 10 minutes. I would like to start with Ken Hansen from Halifax, just in case we have an issue with the video later in the testimony.

Having said that, sir, you have the floor for 10 minutes.

11 a.m.

Ken Hansen Science Advisory Committee Member, Institute for Ocean Research Enterprise, As an Individual

Thank you very much for this opportunity to speak to you and to be heard.

We speak of readiness. The key question to ask is, readiness for what? National sea power spans what I call three conceptual spheres, which are safety, security, and sovereignty. Although officially a military organization that is focused on sovereignty at sea, the RCN is engaged in a very wide array of missions and tasks that range from such things as boater safety to multi-threat combat operations. These spheres of activity can overlap significantly, and they can vary with the circumstances. Largely informal arrangements, naval activities are often poorly defined and therefore poorly understood. The navy provides the Government of Canada with its most ready and responsive military force. The culture of the organization has always been focused on quick reaction, which is the inspiration for its motto, which is “Ready, Aye, Ready”.

The ships are large, well equipped, and reasonably swift. Canadian sailors are self-reliant people, and the practices of seamanship demand that they be multi-skilled. This makes them very useful in military official and unofficial roles. The history of the RCN was focused on the North Atlantic and the trans-Atlantic linkage with Europe. Two world wars and the Cold War have shaped the navy's institutional values, its organizational structure, and its practical capabilities. The navy that exists today is a perpetuation of the forces developed during its first century of existence. The navy is now in transition. It is suffering from a poorly planned and executed renewal process. Ship numbers and types, operational capabilities, and experience levels are unusually low. Old helicopters provided by the RCAF, no sustainment ships, and retired destroyers have diminished the navy to a local defence force. While it has added new capabilities to the frigates and the submarines, and new helicopters are very soon to arrive, the navy is far less ready to engage in distant, long duration, and complex military operations.

I return to my original question. Readiness for what? If the mission or task is local defence for short durations against a low-level threat, then the RCN has reasonable readiness and capabilities to handle such issues. Technologies make the Canadian modernized frigates the equals of any other, and the same is also true for the much-maligned submarines. The crews are well-trained and led. The RCN is also capable of local operations and tasks supporting other government departments and agencies in the safety and security spheres. The RCN contributes significantly to the maintenance of Canadian safety standards and laws in our national waters. It also does this effectively in foreign waters in co-operation with multinational coalitions and bilaterally with allies.

If the mission or task is for long-range, large capacity, or high-intensity operations, then the RCN will have great difficulty in maintaining the effort and producing significant results. In effect, it is a symbolic force. It shows the flag and then leaves. The fleet is simply too small and too narrowly focused on anti-submarine warfare to be of much value outside of that core capability.

The days of the RCN's self-professed categorization as a rank 3 medium power global force projection navy ended with the withdrawal from service of the last Protector-class replenishment ship. Those ships provided the support, supply, and sustainment logistics needed to enable naval operations at short range for long duration or at longer ranges for high-intensity operations. The navy places high priority on tactical proficiency. Conformity to best standards of practice is considered extremely valuable. Little else matters.

This focus on practical issues leaves the navy with a critical shortage of intellectual capacity and organizational skills. In effect, the navy is overtrained and undereducated. Alternate methods of action and “out of the box” thinking are not Canadian naval strengths. Mindset is a critical aspect of readiness often overlooked.

In my view, there are three major areas of weakness that affect naval readiness in Canada.

At the institutional level, the navy is simply too small for a country of our size. In a 2010 study, my master's student, Matthew Gillis, conducted a global survey of naval and Coast Guard forces and compared the RCN to other navies by population, area of responsibility, and gross domestic product.

By any standard of measure, the Canadian navy, especially in manpower terms, is at least only half of the strength that it should be. This diminished stature in a unified forces structure leaves the navy vulnerable to the creation of unified doctrines that do not reflect naval concepts and practices. Simply put, the tyranny of the majority dictates a common approach to all problems in all environmental circumstances. The naval view is largely ignored.

At the organizational level, the navy needs to diversify its structure and functions. The first sign of this is actually on the way in the form of the Arctic and offshore patrol ship. I predict that this utilitarian and flexible ship will become the naval equivalent of a pickup truck. It has reserve cargo capacity and utility spaces that will make it valuable in a wide array of safety, security, and sovereignty tasks.

If the RCN already had such a ship in service, it would be off the coast of Haiti by now loaded with disaster-relief supplies and using its landing craft in areas cut off by the storm. A major step toward improved readiness would be to make humanitarian assistance and disaster relief official missions of the Canadian navy.

At the practical level, the navy is limited by all manner of shortages of people, spare parts, and supplies. Young people are waiting interminably for training. Spare parts are being emergency-transferred from ship to ship. Operations have to be carefully planned to avoid logistical exhaustion. The margins for naval operations are simply too fine. In the event of the unexpected, no contingency reserve exists to make up for shortages in these areas and many others.

The future will be complex and unpredictable, so say the two Canadian Forces future security horizon studies. If you haven't seen them, I highly recommend them. In my view, the next major conflict is likely to be in either the far western Pacific or in the Arctic. In either case, the strategic context for Canada and for the RCN will be suddenly reversed. No longer a supporting force for Europe, Canada will be on the front line of a new and vast operating environment. I do not believe that the navy is ready for this circumstance or for any other that departs from the past strategic context that has shaped the RCN.

The force that the RCN will become is being decided upon now. Rather than a low-endurance, narrowly focused combat force, I believe the Canadian navy needs to diversify, significantly expand its logistical capacity, and integrate its procurement processes into developing the national industrial base. Only in these ways will the RCN become a truly ready, flexible, and reliable force.

I thank you for your attention. I look forward to your questions.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you very much, Mr. Hansen.

I apologize for not recognizing you as a retired commander at the beginning. I thank you for your service and for being here today.

Mr. Lerhe, you have the floor.

11:05 a.m.

Commodore Retired) Eric Lerhe (Centre for the Study of Security and Development, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Thank you very much for inviting me. I will address maritime readiness from my point of view as one of the last commodores who, in 2002, took a full task group to sea. I will also address it as a doctoral researcher in international relations.

My thesis is simple. The world situation has gotten worse, and one of the tools the Canadian government has relied on for decades, a full task group, is no longer available. That will cause us and international order long-term problems.

Let me start by explaining what I was able to do with the full task group in the Strait of Hormuz. I had a missile-armed, anti-air warfare destroyer, two frigates, four helicopters, a supply ship, and two maritime patrol aircraft operating under the UAE. I had total sea control over the Strait of Hormuz. I was able to stay at sea longer than the other coalition and fly my helicopters further than the others because I had an AOR. I also was beholden to no one for a capability I did not have.

There, navies did not just do the traditional sea control warfare role. We served a constabulary function, providing search and rescue and anti-terrorism. We served the important diplomatic function of sending signals to the U.S., which was closing down its borders, that Canada was onside and supporting; sending signals to the regional powers that the U.S. was not operating alone and co-operation would be pretty smart; and sending signals to the world's economic markets. Some 30% of the world's oil passes through the Strait of Hormuz. Within one week oil prices had shot up 60%, but when the world market realized that sea power was going to be able to maintain the flow, oil prices fell down to their normal $30 a barrel.

From 2001 to 2004, 16 of 18 major Canadian warships rotated through five task group rotations in the Gulf. Today—and Ken has made this very clear—we are capable of sending only two frigates for a much shorter period, and they will go out the door more slowly because we'll have to line up tanker support and, in some areas, anti-air warfare support. Further, there are no plans and no funding to replace the maritime patrol aircraft or our submarines. Even the bright promise of the national shipbuilding strategy must be qualified by the fact that it is unlikely to replace all 15 of our current frigates and destroyers.

Ten years after those rotations, the world situation has gotten worse. We have conflict in Iraq and Syria. Africa cries out for attention. There will be massive migration displacement as a result of global warming. But I would direct you to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service's strategic outlook 2018, which places the major threat as issuing from Russia and China.

The Russian case is the more extreme. In 1994, Russia signed the Budapest agreement with the other Security Council members, which guaranteed Ukraine's borders for the Ukraine giving up her 1,700 nuclear weapons. In 2014, Russia invaded Ukraine in the Crimea and almost certainly in the Donbass region.

Other countries with large numbers of Russian citizens, like the Baltics, are being regularly probed by Russian aircraft and are under cyber-attack from the same source. Even Canada has been probed, and just this spring, one of our submarines was tasked by NATO to track a large Russian submarine movement into the Atlantic.

China presents similar security challenges. On the good side, it's critical to maintaining control of North Korea. It's probably the only state with influence. However, this is offset by the One China policy and regular threats to Taiwan. A recent Canadian defence research report by Ben Lombardi argues, “The PLA continues to develop and deploy military capabilities intended to coerce Taiwan or to attempt an invasion”.

China's reactions in the East and South China seas are equally problematic, but probably more so is the problem in the South China Sea, and very recently, the Permanent Court of Arbitration in the Hague completely rejected the Chinese claim to virtually all of the South China Sea by virtue of a nine-dash line.

Further, it has also seized much of the Second Thomas Shoal from the Philippines, even though it is clearly within the Philippines' 200-mile economic zone mandated by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. China has also enlarged and fortified many of these former rocks. Again, the Permanent Court of Arbitration called China to account. China, in turn, rejected the court's findings outright and lashed out at any state that supported the arbitration.

Last week, New Zealand's defence minister was “berated” by the Chinese foreign ministry for opining that:

As a small maritime trading nation, international law and, in particular, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, is important for New Zealand. We support the arbitral process and believe that countries have the right to seek that international resolution.

That should be Canada's position.

Finally, China has its eyes on the Arctic, primarily because of the recent report that up to 20% of the world's remaining hydrocarbon assets are in the Arctic. China has claimed—this is the position of one of its admirals—that “the North Pole and surrounding area are the common wealth of the world’s people and do not belong to any one country”, irrespective of the fact that almost all of those oil reserves are within the exclusive economic zone of the five Arctic powers, as UNCLOS, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, mandates.

There is a broad range of future directions. At the very low end, we will just see Russia and China posturing as they seek to regain elements of their former higher status.

At the high end, there are increasing concerns that these two states' actions will lead to interstate war. The most recent U.S. military strategy states that there is a “low but growing” probability of the U.S. fighting a major war “with a major power”. The 2018 CSIS document I just outlined argues that Russia “is modernising conventional military capability on a large scale; the state is mobilising for war.” The U.S. Pacific Command's intelligence chief was recently fired for publicly declaring that recent exercises indicate that China is preparing for a “short, sharp war” with Japan.

One will not know whether any of these states has actually committed to war, but we do know that the chances of conflict will rise. I suspect—and many others do—that the immediate strategic direction for both countries will be to aggressively pursue their international interests irrespective of the risk and international law. David Mulroney, a potential superb witness for you as our former ambassador to China, says China shows an unpleasant readiness to either ignore international norms or, at best, use them in “cafeteria style”, where it picks those elements useful to it while ignoring the rest.

In picking their crises, they avoid direct challenge with the U.S. Again, Ambassador Mulroney noted that China has a particularly disagreeable habit of instead picking fights with smaller states that are the least able to defend themselves, like the Philippines.

What is the Canadian response? In the short term, Canada has responded well, although there are gaps. We have recently committed to a greater multilateral effort to engage these states. This is critical. China, more than Russia, by its engagement in counter-piracy operations and operations of peacekeeping in Africa, allows Canada a direct means of engaging with it in a positive sense.

Our hard responses are also well timed, if limited: 850 in the Middle East fighting ISIS, 200 training the Ukrainian forces, 350 supporting NATO in eastern Europe, and potentially 450 in Latvia and 650 in Africa. Two things are missing. We are doing nothing in the Pacific to reassure the U.S., Japan, Korea, and the other democracies. We now have plans for 2,500 people deployed. If you check in with the parliamentary budget officer, you'll see that this will generate $1.8 billion in additional costs for DND. Currently, the government has promised only $550 million. There is a shortage.

If the short term is responding reasonably well, my assessment is that the long term is more problematic.

I'll provide some brief recommendations for the future.

One, the defence of North America and the maintenance of Canadian sovereignty relies on surveillance on, above, and beneath the seas. This requires an investment in space, maritime patrol aircraft, and icebreakers. I agree completely with Ken Hansen on the future utility of the Arctic and offshore patrol ships.

Two, maritime surveillance via NORAD must be expanded and accelerated, especially in the Arctic.

Three, our NATO allies are feeling the most direct threat. They deserve from Canada, as an ally, rapidly deployable combat-capable land, air, and sea forces. The lead democracies in Asia are under threat. The ASEAN organization has proven useless. When crisis breaks out, just as in Korea, we'll be called. It would be wise to start deploying now both to show deterrents and to be prepared if things go terribly wrong.

Any large deployment of the Canadian Forces should go to Parliament. More importantly, it has been called for long-standingly by the experts that when something goes to Parliament via deployment, it should be accompanied by a forecast of the specific cost and the source of the funding. I can go into that in quite some length.

The national shipbuilding strategy is starting to deliver, however I note it's only recapitalized one-half of the minimum Coast Guard need—and I've already outlined the problems with the Canadian surface combatant numbers—however, outside the national shipbuilding strategy our future prospects are worse. David Perry has stated this simply, “The single biggest policy problem facing the Canadian military is an inadequate supply of funding to recapitalize”. The DND capital plan has over $55 billion in unmet capital demand and only $11 billion to pay for it.

The previous September, the Canadian government, with the rest of its NATO allies, committed to a defence spending target of 2% of GDP. We are at I%. This committee must now weigh that target against our future capital needs and the world security environment. It must address personnel and excessive base infrastructure if there's any hope of getting this into line. The Economist gave us perhaps the best warning; it's warned that with China's and Russia's actions, if a state does not stand up for international norms “it will inherit a world that is less to its liking”.

That's all I have to say. Thank you very much.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you very much for your testimony.

We'll start with our seven-minute questions.

Mr. Gerretsen, you have the floor.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for taking the time to speak with us. I think that you're extremely passionate, and you both left it all out there on the table; you did a very good job of that.

Mr. Hansen, in the second-last paragraph of your remarks you said that “the next major conflict is likely to be in either the far western Pacific Ocean or in the Arctic”.

Can you expand a little on that; who do you think the actors would be specifically?

11:20 a.m.

Science Advisory Committee Member, Institute for Ocean Research Enterprise, As an Individual

Ken Hansen

As Dr. Lerhe pointed out, the People's Republic of China is the obvious problem. Their repudiation of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea and its dispute resolution mechanisms has really laid bare the very blatant ambitions they have for the South China Sea, I'm afraid, and how they intend to manage their relations with neighbouring states. The difficulty they have in honouring the commitment.... They signed the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, they ratified it, they thereby agreed to all the processes, definitions, and dispute resolution mechanisms, and now they've simply rejected it.

Sovereign states have that right. They will always act in their own vested interests, but the problem here is that it puts them into obvious conflict with a host of states in the area and calls into question one of the fundamental processes of how our globalized economy functions and that is, sea transport of goods, materials, and services. Ninety percent of global commerce is carried by sea. That part of the world's ocean carries a very large and important part of it and a number of our traditional trading partners.

We're now thinking about going into a Trans-Pacific Partnership that does not include China. China has its own trade partnership and some of our traditional allies, the aforementioned New Zealand and Australia, find themselves in the awkward position of being in both houses. There is a lot of confusion. There's a serious problem here with a very bellicose and aggressive major power in the area and a global interest in the high value of the trade that flows through the area.

I don't take exactly the same view as Dr. Lerhe about the Arctic. The problem in the Arctic is irresponsible ship operators. We're now starting to see more transit passages, Arctic tourism, etc. It's only a matter of time before an accident takes place with perhaps a single ship-operating company pulling cargo through the High Arctic, using a ship in poor material condition and run by a collection of international crew members who are not practised in High Arctic operations. There will be an accident. We don't have the logistical capacity to take effective action in the Arctic. We don't have a proper base of operations in the High Arctic. It's not even mapped to modern standards for the use of seamen and businesses.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I'm just going to jump in quickly because I am limited on time, but you started to go towards the next part that I want to talk about, which was the Arctic specifically.

Due to the changes in the Arctic, in particular opening up new travel passages, there is more more interest globally. What does that mean for our navy, in order to maintain what we do have? Of course, that is notwithstanding the fact that both of you have made remarks to the effect that the infrastructure that we have needs to be recapitalized or reinvested in. I'm interested to hear from Mr. Lerhe as well. What does the situation in the Arctic mean in terms of what we're providing? In your opinion, do we have to be expanding on the naval program just because of the particular changes in the Arctic?

11:25 a.m.

Science Advisory Committee Member, Institute for Ocean Research Enterprise, As an Individual

Ken Hansen

Absolutely, yes.

One of the last projects I was involved with when I was in uniform was a future look at the navy. One of the key recommendations was that every ship built in the future for the Royal Canadian Navy should have cold-weather capability. Currently, they do not. This third ocean is a national responsibility. The navy cannot ignore it and an Arctic and offshore patrol ship is a pickup truck, but it is only a pickup truck. It needs to be supplemented and integrated into a bigger fleet plan thay more tightly coordinates the navy and Coast Guard activity in the High Arctic. We don't have enough resources to meet this with any one fleet. They have to be integrated much more closely and practise at working collaboratively in Canadian Arctic operations.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Mr. Lerhe, would you agree with that? Do you have anything to add?

11:25 a.m.

Cmdre Eric Lerhe

I would agree with that. On the lighter-hearted side of this, the threat to the Arctic from major powers is China, which declares that the resources belong to everybody and they're not going to recognize EEZs. The response from Russia, China's recent best friend, was that Russia would increase naval patrols in the Arctic to defend its interests against nations such as China seeking a share of the Arctic's mineral wealth. If you are a fan of Napoleon, this would be covered by precept number three: never interrupt your enemy when he's making a big mistake.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

It's a very political move, too.

11:25 a.m.

Cmdre Eric Lerhe

What Ken has said about infrastructure is absolutely fundamental, and it's always best to cover things with a crisis potential by asking what you know about it. There's a surveillance function and a response function. Canada has certainly covered the response function well. I just heard the deputy commissioner of the Coast Guard outlining his concerns, and they are that we've just had the Crystal Serenity cruise ship steam through there and she was carefully prepared for the ice-free season. He's worried that now everybody will think it's really easy to charge somebody $60,000 for a cabin and not make any preparations. So Ken's point about the safety infrastructure is also there.

However, we also need the surveillance architecture. We need the full constellation of RADARSAT. The maritime patrol aircraft, 10 in number, are not funded; there is no replacement plan, period. Our submarines, which should be outfitted with air-independent propulsion to work the ice edge, are likely going to fall off the end of the earth in the year 2036.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

How prepared are we in terms of surveillance?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I'm going to have to hold you there, Mr. Gerretsen. Maybe someone will circle back with that question.

I have to give the floor to Ms. Gallant.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and my thanks to our witnesses.

First of all, I want to thank both of you for the range of your comments. They're different from anything we've heard before, and they will certainly compose part of the study. I'm afraid, though, that the study we agreed to was done under a bit of a false pretense. We had originally thought that our study of air defence as part of the defence of North America, together with our studies of the navy and the army, would all be funnelled into the defence policy review. We found out during the summertime, when the announcement was made that we were sending out 600 peacekeepers before we'd even defined the review, that the whole exercise was just one in public relations.

Commodore Lerhe, you mentioned that we should be planning now to help our allies in Europe. We have people in Iraq right now, and we're planning for a deployment in Africa. We have people in Ukraine, the Baltics, and other places the committee isn't quite sure of, because we've never had a briefing from the chief of the defence staff, even though we've asked him for a briefing since this committee was first constituted. Each time we have a deployment, It's not just the women and men on the ground, or in the air, or under the sea; it's the whole sustainment group behind them that needs to be in place. There's great concern that we're not going to have the ability to have all of these people in place, should we need to. As it turned out, the first phase of our study on air defence was covert so that we would not have an open tendering process for the replacement of our fighters.

In any case, another matter we wanted to bring into focus was the remedy and protection of our forces after the attack on a recruiting centre in March of this year. We were having a very difficult time recruiting people to the military, and they're leaving the military in quite large numbers. This builds into our ability to have the forces ready for the instances you described

With respect to your presentation, it's very helpful. The only information we receive, other than from witnesses, is in the news. We've had no briefings on deployments—

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Do you have a question, Ms. Gallant?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Yes, I do. And this is questions and comments.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Gallant has the floor. It's comments or questions. She can use that time as she sees fit.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you, Jim.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

She shouldn't be interrupted.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

She isn't badgering the witnesses at—

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

If there's a question that's relevant to what we are discussing here, we should—

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

It is relevant. It pertains to North America—