Evidence of meeting #43 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ensure.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
I don't know if that's a regulation, but I know it is the practice right now, in that the goal of that closing the seam work is to ensure that nobody is released from the armed forces until they are ready. That means, their benefits are in place, their family is stable, and they are emotionally and physically ready to leave.
If it's a Queen's regulation, a QR&O, I'll find out, but it is the practice right now. It is the critical element in that closing the seam work that's being done.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
We're going to have to leave it there. We're out of time, unfortunately.
I'm going to give the floor over to Mr. Whalen. Thanks for coming today, and welcome to the defence committee.
You have the floor.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you for having me, Chair.
Thank you very much for coming, Ms. Thomas. It's very interesting. Your background seems ideally suited at this time when the defence staff is engaged in such a huge amount of procurement and revitalization in transitioning to a new policy.
From your background, I see that you were heavily involved with managing a change or crisis at the immigration department. We would like to avoid a further crisis in managing the change to a new strategic approach to defence, the new national defence policy.
What additional supports do you see being needed in the department to ensure that legacy protocols can continue to be managed while new processes and policies are being put into place?
Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Thank you for the question.
I think what's critical, whenever you're implementing something new and you have to maintain either current operations or legacy systems, is overlap and backup. We can use any number of methods to implement something new. We can put a tiger team in place to write new policy and implement new program, but I think what's critical is not cutting off the people who are doing the legacy work from the forward-looking work.
In the defence department, just like in the Coast Guard, if we take a new approach to doing something, it's a transition from one to another. It's making sure that's seamless: people understand the training, that they are trained, they understand what's expected of them. I'll be working very closely with the vice-chief of the defence staff to do just that.
It depends on exactly what the defence policy review says—how much there's a pivot, or how much there's an expansion, or how much there's a change of what's being done.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
I'm glad to see someone with some experience in change management in your roles. That's wonderful.
There's another sideline, and maybe this is following up on Mr. Spengemann's questions about increasing the opportunities for women in the military. It relates to the November 28, 2016 report from Statistics Canada that highlights that general sexualized behaviour in the workplace, discrimination “on the basis of sex, sexual orientation or gender identity”, etc., is much more prevalent—maybe six or seven times as prevalent—in the military as the general working population.
How do you oversee or are involved in ensuring that there's a change of culture and a new approach to weeding out sexualized violence within the Canadian military—certainly on the civilian side, where this was even more prevalent than on the regular forces side?
Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Thank you for that question. It's an enormously important subject, and it's one that I know the chief of the defence staff, the deputy minister, and the minister are all taking extremely seriously.
I've had multiple meetings already with the Operation Honour team, and asked what they want my role to be. Certainly, it's a leadership role, and a policy role in ensuring the right policies are in place to keep women safe; that the right lines of communication are there to report violence and inappropriate behaviour; that we talk constantly to the men and women of the defence team, of the entire department, about what's appropriate and what's inappropriate. It becomes a very slow but steady culture change, in terms of expectation.
The chief of the defence staff has been quite adamant in saying that this had to stop. He's put in an enormous effort with the OP honour team into ensuring that it does. You can't order something like that, though; you have to work with who is there. It's about leadership, ensuring that people have a safe environment, and working with the men and women in the forces to educate about what they absolutely should be saying no to in reporting, and, on the other side, of what is absolutely inappropriate behaviour.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Ms. Thomas, it's not clear from my review of the organization chart who is responsible on your team for helping to implement this agenda.
Should there be a dedicated person? Should that be set out in the org chart so it's clear who is responsible for implementing the agenda of the national defence team to weed out and change the culture against sexualized violence?
Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
On the military side, with Operation Honour, Rear-Admiral Jennifer Bennett, who is probably familiar to you, is leading that initiative for the Canadian Armed Forces.
Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
On the Defence staff side, I'm the ADM responsible for civilian HR, and I will be discussing that next week.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I'm going to give the first part to Cheryl, so she can finish her line of questioning.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
If the requirement to have left the forces is a practice as opposed to one of the Queen's regs, what is the obstacle to changing it so that people can have that seamless transition and not have to wait months and months for either a lump sum or their very first pension cheque?
Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
As I said, I don't know if it is a regulation or a practice, so I will have to get back to you with what the exact process is. I know that making the application for veterans benefits and moving into the VAC care system out of the defence care system is what's being worked on now.
It is three weeks in for me, it's a very complex file, there are a number of elements to it, and I could not yet pronounce on what the problem is or how to fix it.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Do you see a reason why the surgeon general's office...? I ask because it is the military doctors who see and treat the people who often are medically releasing? They have the historic knowledge of why a person is medically releasing. Does it not make sense for them to be the ones who adjudicate as to whether or not they qualify for medical benefits through Veterans Affairs, rather than making them go before people who have no medical background whatsoever to fight for the very benefits that were promised to them should they get injured in the course of duty?
Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
On its face, yes, what you're saying makes sense. I haven't spoken to the surgeon general about his position on that aspect of the transition yet. As I dig into it, those are the questions I'll be asking.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I'll take it from there.
Ms. Thomas, you were talking about the different projects you're working on. It seems that you have a lot of people you're working with, or reporting to. You have the vice-chief of the defence staff you have to work with on the issue of personnel, human resources, and that side of it. You're working with the associate defence minister of materiel, Patrick Finn, on a national shipbuilding strategy.
Does it get a little confusing, or do you think everything will fall into place as things move along? Is it normal practice to have so many different people that you have to report to?
Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
They report to me.
Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Yes. Pat Finn, for example, will report to me. I'll work side by side with the vice-chief of the defence staff.
So no, it's not an unusual situation at my level of the hierarchy.
Conservative
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
On national defence procurement and the shipbuilding strategy, we just finished wrapping up our hearings on naval readiness. We talked about shipbuilding. We had the main contractors here. We had Irving, Davie, and Seaspan here. The concerns are about the time it's taking to make the surface combatant decision on design, a possible lag between the AOPS coming off the production line, and then having to lay off people for 18 months, maybe two years, before we actually start the manufacturing and construction of the surface combatant.
Have you dived into yet how we will manage that hole and the loss of expertise, particularly at Irving in Halifax?