Evidence of meeting #62 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukraine.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Thank you, Chair.
Ms. Sinclair, thank you for the work you do. It's very honourable, what you're doing and the process you're going through, and you definitely are going to be changing lives, not only now but into the future. It's very important.
Ms. Romanado touched on cybersecurity and I'm curious: have we seen the Russians use cybersecurity, or fake news, or items like that to undermine Ukraine's process in regard to doing the things you would like to see them move forward with? Have you seen any examples where what you're seeing on television and in the news isn't actual, yet it's undermining their process in moving closer to NATO?
5:25 p.m.
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
Yes, we see this. In terms of Russian misinformation and disinformation, just about every positive development has a counter-narrative. It can be done subtly or less subtly, to suggest to Ukrainians that it isn't quite as it seems, or in fact the Ukrainian armed forces are not training well, or they're committing abuses, or whatever it is. There is a deliberate effort, not so much focused around the DRAB specifically—although it may well be now; who knows?—but definitely to try to counter that narrative of progress and exploit opportunities where they exist. Because the system is so flawed, there are opportunities.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
How do you get through that? How do you sort out the fake news or the fake information that you may come upon, that in actual fact it is something that's been planted just to make it an uncomfortable interaction between us and the Ukrainian military?
5:25 p.m.
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
That's a great question.
I rely very heavily on a whole network of Ukrainian players from civil society, around the think tanks, parliamentarians, everybody, to try to get ground truth. Also, the international communities stay pretty close with one another in the sense of being able to verify, counter-verify, challenge what we've heard to say, “Okay, so what really is the situation here?”
I have to say things are a bit murky sometimes in Ukraine and it's hard to get to the truth, but I think we have the relationships of trust and the access to be able to ask people. If I'm really concerned about something, I can go to the minister and ask him what is the situation.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
5:25 p.m.
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
Yes, exactly.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you.
In the last minute that we have, one of the things that happened when the war broke out is that a lot of militias were stood up; a lot of them were privately funded. Some of them were funded through different mayors and oblasts. How has the unification worked out? How have all those, I guess, personal interests and regional interests that were involved in standing up the military after Crimea and the invasion in Donbass worked out? Are those militias now part of the 250,000-strong armed forces in a unified manner?
5:25 p.m.
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
Thank you for that question.
Some of the militias are fully integrated and some of them aren't. It gets a little to what some of the other witnesses said. There are still personal and private interests at play where people are kind of funding these militias for all sorts of different reasons. They may be good reasons and bad reasons. This issue of unification, of governance, of really getting your arms around a professional armed service, what that means, what is the doctrine, what is the ethical basis. This is something that still needs focusing on and it's certainly something we talked to the Ukrainians about.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
There's also the issue that border security and the national guard are kind of separate. It's under a different ministry is it not?
5:25 p.m.
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
The national guard, yes, they report in slightly different ways. When the national guard is operating in defence of the country, it is actually chopped. It comes under the Ukrainian armed forces, so there is more unity of command there.
On the issue of how all these security services relate to each other, which relates to an earlier question, there is a draft national security law that is under way right now. It's still in draft. It needs a lot of work. It's extremely important for that law.... I don't know if you heard about it when you were with your parliamentary colleagues, but that law needs to be settled, because it is not clear who has the roles and responsibilities and where you need it to be in a democratic country.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
That was good timing, because there is the bell for a vote.
Thank you very much for coming to see us today. You mentioned you worked directly with the ministers, so when you see General Poltorak again, please send him our regards. He was really the one who got this particular committee and this Parliament involved. We want to send our warm regards, please.
5:30 p.m.
Canadian representative, Ukrainian Defence Reform Advisory Board, Department of National Defence
Great, thank you.
Thank you, chair.