Evidence of meeting #67 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nato.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Walter Dorn  Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you.

Mr. Robillard, you have five minutes.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Dorn, thank you for joining us this afternoon.

Among your recent works is “Eyes in the Sky for Peacekeeping: The Emergence of UAVs in UN Operations”.

What is your vision of the presence and use of surveillance drones in UN's peacekeeping missions?

4:10 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

Prof. Walter Dorn

Thank you for your question.

I think that the UN is making tremendous progress in technology. In the last five years, it's made more than in the previous 25 years that I've been observing the UN and its use of technology.

It acquired its first drone as a mission asset, and I should add these are unarmed surveillance drones. They are there to be the eyes and ears of the United Nations and not to be firing.

It's very important that the UN be supported in this initiative. They went from the original half dozen drones in 2013 to over 100 drones now. Countries with technological expertise could help the UN so that they can better use them for peace missions. If we provide an air or reconnaissance capability through helicopters or other means, they can also have cameras attached that could be integrated with the UN's own drones so that we had a much better situational awareness in these conflict areas.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you.

You submitted a brief on NATO's Science for Peace and Security Programme. What could Canada's concrete contributions to that program be, and to what areas of expertise should we contribute?

4:10 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

Prof. Walter Dorn

Under the science for peace and security program, we could help partner Canadian scientists with scientists from Ukraine and other partnership for peace countries in order to do scientific research relating to security. That could help both our own capacity in the scientific domain as well as help employment and capacity in the partnership for peace countries. We could link them up. We could use some of the findings to better improve security in the world, as well. There are some amazing programs for detecting mines and for looking at robotics that can come out of these programs. That would be well worth the investment in money and time.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

You have another minute and 30 seconds. If Mr. Gerretsen...?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I'll share with my colleague.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Mr. Dorn, do you know how many of NATO's peacekeeping troops are women?

4:10 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

Prof. Walter Dorn

I do not have that figure. I have not seen it released by NATO. The NATO peacekeeping contribution is currently the KFOR mission in Kosovo, so it would be a question of looking at what percentage of the KFOR mission—

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Of Canada's contribution, do you know what percentage would be women?

4:10 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

Prof. Walter Dorn

Yes, it's approximately 15% to 20%.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Can you give some suggestions as to what could be done, both internally within Canada and perhaps within the NATO perspective, to break down some of the barriers to involvement of women in peacekeeping? How do we increase the number of women peacekeeping troops?

4:10 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

Prof. Walter Dorn

I think we should start deploying. Take the number we have now and double or triple it almost immediately. Let them get experience, so that when we do deploy the promised 750 uniformed personnel, or up to that limit, we have people who are already experienced, and put in some high-quality women military officers and police officers.

By the way, on the 15% to 20% figure, the UN counts by uniformed personnel, not just military, in the current UN's 4%. Women police officers have distinguished themselves in the Haiti mission very well and have shown why there are advantages for UN missions in having more women in the field.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

You would agree, then, that we should be adding more women, would you?

4:10 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you. That's probably it.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Mr. Hoback is next.

November 1st, 2017 / 4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Mr. Dorn, for being here.

It's hard to know where to go. There are so many things I'd like to ask, and five minutes isn't enough time. Maybe I'll start off with your ideas on how NATO would go about de-escalating what's going on in Ukraine and seeing some resolution that would create a solution all parties could live with. Do you have any quick thoughts on that?

I have about 10 more questions for you.

4:10 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

Prof. Walter Dorn

Sure. The Russians will say that NATO would only escalate by playing a greater role in Ukraine. In fact, however, if you look at the capacity to show both hard and soft power, NATO would play an important role in the hard power, showing that attacks in Ukraine are considered a threat to the security of the NATO alliance. That should be giving Russia second thoughts about intervening.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

As far as Canada allowing Ukraine to have the armaments they require to defend themselves is concerned, then, would you say at this point that it would make sense?

4:15 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

Prof. Walter Dorn

Yes, but I think we should be very judicious in the choice of armaments. We don't want them to fall into the wrong hands; they have to be provided in a very professional fashion, with proper command and control. I am in favour, though, of starting to provide some weapons to Ukraine.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

My colleague talked about drones. I was at a conference a couple of years ago. They were using drones to provide humanitarian aid in areas where conflict was ongoing and you couldn't get people in, but you could get medication in through drones. They had issues with securing those drones and making sure they weren't swiped and used for other purposes.

I'm curious, as you talk about hybrid warfare and cyber-technologies, about NATO's role in cyber-technologies. They've been relatively hesitant until the last few years to even acknowledge that there's a cyber issue.

How would you suggest Canada show leadership with NATO in cyber-technologies? As we listen to the President in the U.S. talk about upping our ante, the amount of money we spend, and with the issues we have with spending money here in Canada and getting it through the process, is this a way we might actually add value?

4:15 p.m.

Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Defence Studies, As an Individual

Prof. Walter Dorn

Speaking about drones, it's an excellent area in which the western countries can help Ukraine get better situational awareness of what's happening. The OSCE has flown drones as part of its mission in Ukraine but has found that they've been hijacked or been shot at and that sort of thing. The OSCE, then, also needs support to back its ceasefire monitoring in Ukraine.

As far as cyber goes, NATO has a centre of excellence in Tallinn dealing with the cyber domain. The centre produced the “Tallinn Manual 2.0”, which is really the best document on the laws in the cyber domain.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

When did that get up and running, just for my inexperience? When did it come into place in Tallinn? Was it just in the last couple of years?