National Defence Committee on March 1st, 2018

[MGen William Seymour, Chief of Staff Operations, Canadian Joint Operations Command, Department of National Defence]

I can supplement that, too.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

Certainly. General Seymour will add some comments.

We went into Latvia, eyes wide open, certainly. As a lead nation, we felt it was our responsibility to understand this challenge; to make sure that we had a strong, strategic communications plan that was vetted amongst all of the capitals within our battle group, working that hand in glove with NATO to ensure that. Part of the challenge is to make sure you're getting your message out. In fact, leading up to our deployment, General Seymour and I, specifically, participated in a lead nation battle group war game, if you will, an exercise where we went through a number of examples of what may happen and how might we react to these sorts of occurrences—fake news, intrusions, disruptions from Russian hybrid tactics. I think we learned a lot from that. We came back to Canada. We ran a very similar exercise with our whole of government partners, the seniors from the various departments. I think the view that we took was that we need to be very connected; we need to be able to call a spade a spade when there are mistruths being made, certainly if they are directed at our Canadian Armed Forces deployed. We train them. We ensure, from a hygiene perspective, that there's a personal discipline.

General Seymour, who led the operational employment of that concept, can certainly share with the committee some additional comments if you want to grant us a bit more time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We will have time to circle back on this. Perhaps the witness would just glance at me once in a while; it would be helpful. I'm completely comfortable interacting with my colleagues but I really don't like interrupting you. I appreciate your coming here and I want to make sure you're heard.

MP Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

I'm going to turn my time over this morning to my colleague, Rachel Blaney, who often backs me up here in committee and also serves as the NDP representative at the international meetings of the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association.

I'm going to give my time to Rachel.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you, all, so much for being here. I absolutely have to say that when I travel with the NATO parliamentary assembly, all of us hear, repeatedly, from so many nations...the great work that our men and women in uniform do. I think that's a huge testament to the great work that you all do in your leadership role, so thank you so much for being here today.

I also have the proud gift of representing 19 Wing in my riding in Comox and have certainly learned a lot. I just have to say how immensely proud I was last week. We actually had the Wounded Warriors of B.C. running from Port Hardy to Victoria. In Comox, the military came out in uniform to greet them, and it was really touching to see how amazing it was in all the legions in the valley. I think there is a proud history in our community. And I want to give a special shout-out to Major-General Seymour, who I know came from Comox, and has a long history there. I'm very happy to be with you here today.

[MGen William Seymour]

It's my home town.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Exactly.

One of the concerns that I have, and I have to say that just a few weeks ago I met with the Campbell River Youth Action Committee who works closely with our Campbell River mayor and council. One of the things that they brought up, and I thought this was something interesting, was their very high concern about how heated tensions are across the world.

Their concerns around what's going to happen if somebody has an opportunity to push a button where nuclear arms are deployed. A lot of concern. What they asked me a lot about, is what are we doing as a country to help calm those tensions. I think, when you look at NATO's commitment to the implementation of the Treaty on Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, this is something we have to continue to work on.

We probably all read the article that we saw today with Putin making some very interesting and distressing announcements about new defence systems in his annual state address. He talked about that Russia is ready to use nuclear weapons. That Russia has a nuclear weapon that can reach any point in the world.

We know that this is growing. I'm just wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what Canada's role in NATO is around having some really meaningful talks about how we stop this and how we begin that conversation.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

I can kick it off and then pass it to my colleagues here.

Canada i's obviously playing a leadership role in working with the international community, including through NATO, to reduce tensions. We recognize the threats posed within the international community. One of the ways that we recently addressed this is through hosting in Vancouver, in fact, the foreign ministers of several countries to discuss diplomatic solutions to the situation in North Korean and DPRK.

Whilst, through NATO we're working towards a deterrence style of reduction of tensions. To have a strong deterrent is very important from our perspective. We never lose sight of the fact that the primary focus needs to be a diplomatic push towards reducing tensions. One of our most tangible and most recent efforts was through that meeting in Vancouver.

[MGen Derek Joyce]

I would just add that in the context of the discussion this morning, a strong, cohesive, vibrant NATO is a big piece of the puzzle in terms of deterrence and assuring ourselves that as adversaries look at us and contemplate actions, they have to take notice of NATO as an extremely powerful alliance. There's nothing like it in the world. You have 29 nations that have the political will to come together and respond. I think NATO is a piece of that reassurance message.

I understand that some students out of UBC are potentially going to travel to one of our missions. I think in Latvia we're looking at supporting some of the youth getting abroad and having an opportunity to actually see NATO in action, Canadian Armed Forces within NATO providing a piece of the puzzle in that deterrence mission. Hopefully that will add a bit of understanding.

I certainly think the work with the Canadian Parliamentary Association is laudable. I certainly would commend you for that and certainly Ms. Alleslev for her leadership. It's great for us to share Canada and Canada's contributions with the broader parliamentary team.

I think if getting youth involved in that could be encouraged more broadly, that would be good for the alliance as well.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I couldn't agree more around engaging young people. I know that having gone to a small community in this country and having heard so passionately that this is a growing concern. I understanding that you guys are working on the front lines of this. So many people in Canada are feeling a lot of concern.

I hope Canada will continue and broaden that perspective. We want to see a long-standing dedication of Canada as peacekeepers. I know that in my riding, there are always conversations about the Canadian military really being a focus of peace and how we continually have to educate people about that role.

I'm just wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what the Canadian branch of NATO is doing to connect with young people, educate them in this way, and have more of those conversations.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

That's a great question. I don't have any examples to draw upon in terms of NATO, but certainly we engage. I believe there's a youth champion. We have opportunities to engage with youth committees. There are various touchpoints.

Frankly, a lot of them happen at our wings and our bases. Certainly when I was a commanding officer in Gagetown, we regularly had kids come in, whether it was to see Santa flying in the back of a helicopter or—many examples where we had opportunities—open houses, air shows, where really Canada comes to our wings and bases.

We have an opportunity to showcase what we do and an opportunity to dialogue. We may have an opportunity to recruit some of them, ideally, because this is a priority for us. It's at that coal face level where we have to take those opportunities and explain what we do and why we do it.

I have young children and rarely do they ask me military questions, but certainly in the context of North Korea...which is to your point, right?

I'm sorry. I have to end.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you for that. We went a little bit over time.

I'm going to turn the floor over to MP Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

Our role, of course, as parliamentarians is to ensure that we have the capability in our Canadian Armed Forces to meet our strategic foreign policy and alliance goals and responsibilities.

In your opening remarks, you highlighted our long presence in Germany during the Cold War, to the Balkans, Afghanistan, and Libya. Maybe not right now, but perhaps you could get this back to the committee: could you give us a feel for what, at our peak, and you mentioned the 1990s, we had in terms of capability in Europe, how many people, what types of assets, what type of equipment, and how that compares to 455 people in Latvia and five people in Rome?

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

That might be best taken on notice, so we can come back with the exact numbers. In terms of the numbers currently under Operation REASSURANCE, certainly with our ship's company persistently deployed, plus our 455 people, we are, day to day, generally 700 people. When we have our ATF deployed, we're close to 1,000 people.

Certainly in terms of looking at that in the context of the previous contributions, absolutely we can provide that to the committee.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I think in terms of equipment, in terms of capability, and in terms of what we brought to the table would be great, particularly in light of, of course, that we do have a bit of a gap now in terms of our destroyer capability, in terms of our AORs even though we're looking at the replacement of the joint support ships. We've been told at this committee that the Kosovo campaign and Libya campaign would be a difficult challenge to be able to mount today with the capability we have today right down to, of course, originally having 138 F-18s where we now have 60, and, of course, a decline in our subsurface surveillance capability in anti-submarine warfare to name a few.

Could you give us an idea of how we measure our capability and how that compares again to the capability we had previously.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

I can kick-start. Certainly, I think one of the points I would make first and foremost as we look at our new defence policy, the clarity of capability investments we have laid out in our defence policy over the next 20 years fully costed. Certainly, this as we ramp on those systems, those investments our 88 new fighter aircraft, etc., these will be capability opportunities that we will offer to the alliance as we develop them and introduce them.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

That's a very good point. I guess what I'm wanting to know is where we are today. We've outlined where we want to get to, but we haven't been given the information yet. That's what I'm asking for from you. How do we measure our capability in each one of those domains, and, therefore, what is our report card, and how are we doing today until we get to where we want to get after that investment?

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

Okay, it's a great question. I would say broadly speaking one of my roles for the Chief of Defence Staff is to constantly be taking stock of what we have on the shelf. The responsibility of the Chief of Defence Staff, an awesome one, is to provide military advice to the Government of Canada, essentially options for putting the Canadian Armed Forces on the pointy end of the spear, in harm's way potentially. He does that, obviously, based on a look at the capabilities and the capacities that he has.

We manage that through a force posture and readiness protocol where we essentially, if you will, colour code those capabilities that we have on the shelf. We've done a little bit of work specifically given the...The element of the operational concurrency model is well outlined in our defence policy, the numbers of troops that we will need to have deployed, to a maximum, the four small missions and the three larger missions.

When we take stock of the force elements, if you will, we have many bespoke capabilities. In some cases individuals could be seen as a Canadian Armed Forces capability based on the definition.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Could you expand a bit on that, because that's the next question.

What would you say are Canada's key capabilities because we've decided that we will probably never go anywhere on our own. We're going to be part of an alliance, so therefore, a little bit like a soccer team, maybe we're the one with the left wing defenceman, not necessarily all the players on the field.

How would you highlight the key Canadian capabilities and strengths?

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

You know I love the hockey analogies.

I would be a little bit cheeky, if I may. I think at the end of the day it's not about the capital equipment. I think at the end of the day what Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces bring abroad, and I've been there, is the human capital.

I've heard General Vance say this in different forms. I think the Canadian Armed Forces members are well-trained, they're disciplined, and I know a number of the committee members know that instinctively. We're brought up in a way that, I think, has us adaptable and agile. We bring a lot more to the fight, if you will, than just the equipment that we're deploying with.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

For sure, but a capability is a capability. It may only be human capital in some instances, or it may be human capital and equipment.

What would you say are the key capabilities that Canada brings to the NATO contribution?

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

I think we'd say the air force.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

That's not for the record.

[MGen William Seymour]

I would say the joint force, for the record.