National Defence Committee on March 1st, 2018

[MGen Derek Joyce]

Sure, I can start. You've highlighted one key area, that the alliance is looking to respond to an increasingly tense situation. As of 2014, with the invasion into Ukraine-Crimea, we've seen the largest increase in forces associated with NATO since the Cold War. It's in direct response to the threats that Russia has posed to international peace and security. I'm not looking at it from the nuclear aspect, but it's all related.

Deterrence is not simply having one nuclear capability able to challenge another nuclear capability; it's a spectrum of operations that goes from conventional forces to nuclear forces. NATO, through its reassurance efforts, is actually increasing its deterrent capability in the European theatre. That deterrent capability is directly focused on the instability in the international community caused by Russia's activities. I hope that answers your question.

[MGen William Seymour]

To put it into context, too, is you ask us questions about the military instrument but we talk a lot about how the military instrument fits into the broader.... We talk about DIME: diplomatic, informational, military, economic. We've been successful, I think, in the west, in applying pressure on Russia in the economic sphere because of sanctions we applied and the great leadership that Canada shows in the diplomatic environment. All those tools come together to achieve outcomes that Canada wants, and we're simply one part of that. As professionals we talk about the range of those kinds of things and how they come together to support the government's objectives.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

The only point I would add—and I'm not an expert—but I know NATO has NATO-Russia consultations, which is dialogue. You probably were briefed on that when you were over at NATO headquarters. Things such as exercises, like a large-scale Russian exercise on the edge of the Baltics, for some would be seen as very provocative. Briefing that activity out in that kind of dialogue is a way to simmer down the tensions and the provocations that some may read from it.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I guess more directly, then, I would ask, has Canada really been involved in the disarmament committee of NATO, and have you been asked to have input into activities more directly that might lead to that?

I accept that Operation Reassurance is a deterrent. In our party, we supported it on that basis, but what's happening on the other side of that? Is NATO really active, and is Canada active in trying to reduce nuclear weapons and reduce those tensions?

[MGen Derek Joyce]

I can say that NATO is committed to creating the conditions for a world without nuclear weapons, and that's stated.

Canada, along with co-sponsors Germany and the Netherlands—not necessarily within the NATO context—is promoting the work of the fissile material cut-off treaty, and that's really all I would have to say on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I want to ask a couple of questions regarding the AWACS program that Canada has recently announced it will get involved with again in NATO.

I'm not sure who would like to answer this, so I'll turn it to any of you. Could you comment on what that contribution means to NATO and how important it is for Canada to play a role in AWACS?

[MGen Derek Joyce]

Sure, I'd be happy to.

From the NATO perspective, it's going to be Canada's contribution to the support and operations of the AWACS program to the tune of $17 million to $20 million, I think. We're still in the negotiations of exactly how much that will be.

It is a fair-share contribution from Canadians' perspective to a NATO program that we haven't participated in for a while. So I think—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I just want to interject there for a quick second.

Do you recall why we chose to get out of participating in it?

[MGen Derek Joyce]

Yes, certainly. It was during a time of fiscal restraint, and the Government of Canada was looking for areas to cut programs that were not viewed as being productive.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Why was it not viewed as being productive?

[MGen Derek Joyce]

At the time, around the 2010 period, there had been a couple of requests for the use of NATO AWACS, for example, for the 2010 Vancouver Olympics and in support of operations in Afghanistan. The NATO system was complex enough that it was not able to provide those capabilities when Canada asked, and so as a result of that, the view was that it wasn't a performing program from Canadians' perspective.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

To help us during the Olympics?

[MGen Derek Joyce]

That's correct, yes, to bring the AWACS over to help control the air security situation. As a result of that, the decision was then made to cease the program, to a savings of about $60 million.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Now that we're back in the program, what's the response from our allies in NATO?

[MGen Derek Joyce]

I think the key response is that it's great to have additional funding, but I think more importantly, it's important to have Canada as an ally in the AWACS program. The centre of gravity of NATO is coming together as an alliance, as alliance cohesion, and this is one additional contributor to that cohesion, having all members of NATO contributing to this program.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

I'll add that we're certainly seeing the benefit. The NATO AWACS will operate overhead our troops in Latvia by, but one example, operating, as I mentioned earlier, overhead the airspace of Iraq, so we're accruing a benefit on the ground, and I think in the policy recently released, we talk about the JISR, joint intelligence surveillance reconnaissance, the priority of that capacity in the future operating environment being kind of a premium, so we see the AWACS playing a greater role in that regard.

[MGen Derek Joyce]

I'd like to just add that the process for requesting AWACS support from NATO has changed, so the challenges that we had eight years ago have been mitigated.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

So if we ask them to come, the response might be different, may have been different under this new protocol.

[MGen Derek Joyce]

That's correct.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I don't know if there's any more time, but I'm happy to share.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

You have about a minute for a question and answer.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I have a quick question. When we were at RMC, we didn't have the opportunity to participate in a mock NATO. Would you happen to know if they can today? It's pretty cool. Do we get invited to Carleton or...?

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

When you're the commandant of an incredible institution—

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Some of us didn't play hockey. We were doing history stuff.