National Defence Committee on April 19th, 2018

[Mark Gwozdecky]

Let me answer by saying that how we're doing some of the elements of our strategy is very innovative. What we're doing derives exactly from these various high-level reports that have been done on UN peacekeeping. Our strategy is responding to these independent reports about what the UN needs most in terms of doing a better job: more women, better training, these kinds of things. That's where our strategy focuses.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

You mentioned Canada's connections to Mali. We know all these missions are dangerous. There's no such thing as a mission that's not dangerous. Why Mali? Why Africa? In your opinion, is it a good fit?

I'm not sure if anyone else wants to chime in on it as well.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

Well, why Africa? Close to 70% of the UN's peace operations missions are in Africa. Invariably, if you want to make a difference in peace operations, you're more than likely going to have to do it in Africa.

Secondly, why Mali? Mali is where our requirements, our specialized capabilities that we agreed as a government to make available, correspond with the need. The match was there. Of course, there are additional considerations that make Mali conducive to Canada, given our long tradition, our ongoing very fulsome kinds of development assistance and other kinds of support, and our linguistic capabilities, all of which lend themselves to making Mali a place suitable for what we have to offer.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I would assume the UN would ask us for help on all missions, or many missions. Are the reasons you just outlined be the ones for which we would have chosen to move in that direction and to assist in that way?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

As I said, I think it was a match. The government decided on what it felt was Canada's value added, the kind of capabilities that were badly needed to make a difference. The UN decides on its gaps and its requirements. It just happened that, in Mali, one major gap was opening up this coming August in terms of the aviation task force requirement, and Canada had the capability to fill that gap.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

How do we transition that vision of what people perceive peacekeeping to be, to how an actual mission plays out now? Leona and I were chatting about this earlier. We picture people walking around. It's not the way it once was. How do we get that vision in Canadians' minds, of what peacekeeping, or what was once peacekeeping, looks like now?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

If there was one thing I wish Canadians would understand about our strategy, it would be that it's not all about sending some helicopters to Mali. As important as that is, the focus of our effort is to try to make a difference system-wide by impacting the number of women participating in peace operations, and by improving the capabilities of major troop-contributing countries to do their jobs more professionally.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Perfect.

General Meinzinger, I have 10 seconds left.

Leafs or Bruins?

Leafs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

The last question in the first round will go to MP Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Going back to the training question, I'm going to give maybe too long an example, but before I went to Afghanistan, I did a high-level personal security training course that the British military offered, because I worked for a British NGO. Part of that was how to get through a non-state actor roadblock. I also did a Pearson Peacekeeping Centre course. Part of that course was how to get the roadblock removed. Both of those were essential skills that I used in Afghanistan.

I'm looking for where the focus is, if I can use that analogy, right now. The Pearson Peacekeeping Centre, when I did the course, had military people and civilian people in the same course working on that. The same thing was true in the British military course. We had both working together on those same things, but it was a different level of training that we were working at in those two cases.

If that analogy works at all, where is our focus of training now?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

Could I just start by saying that among the lessons we learned along the way in places like Afghanistan was that training can take place in a number of different environments. Sometimes it's suitable to bring people to Canada. Very often it's more beneficial to do it in the field on the ground and our CTAT mission, which I think our colleagues could speak to, is a very effective concept that we perfected, I would say, in Afghanistan and that we're trying to apply in local environments.

And by the way, Mr. Fisher, it's not Bruins, it's Jets.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I like the Jets.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

I'll just park the CTAT discussion for a moment, but I was going to respond in that we have a very disciplined way that we prepare folks to deploy on missions. There are two modules. The first is a basic itemized list of training series that individuals need to go through. They have to have medicals done. They need to have their immunizations. Then we move into what we call theatre mission-specific training, and that is run through General Bowes' team.

In my view, it's very well done. It includes such things as exposure to the child soldier phenomenon based on the environments that we are anticipating our troops will be in.

I recall that when I deployed to Haiti in 1995 we had a gentleman come in from CIDA at that time and he was providing us some cultural perspective. I recall him describing to me that it's not appropriate in Haiti to put your hand on the top of a child's head and sort of acknowledge the child. This is not something that's seen in a positive way. From the basic training to the theatre mission-specific training, that enterprise is a well-proven one that we're currently in the process of, for the deployment to Mali.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I'm back to whether we need a Pearson Peacekeeping Centre or not. I would say that one of Canada's contributions has always been that high-level training, that second level of training, and the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre certainly did a lot of their courses in Africa on site. They didn't do them all here. I'm hoping we are looking toward—if not a revitalized version of that centre—recreating those capacities and making them available because I think that is one of Canadian strengths, our training model.

[MGen Derek Joyce]

If I may, without necessarily referring back to the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre, I can say that we're using all the tools we have at hand. We have mentioned the CTAT and the fact that we're taking this capability internationally to conduct that type of training.

We conduct our own type of training here in Kingston and we're going to be conducting training for children in armed conflict, and women, peace and security, and those are all going to be done internationally and domestically. We also have a tool called the military training and co-operation program in which we—in Canada and outside Canada—bring in members of the program and conduct different types of training, everywhere from UN logistics training, women, peace and security, and probably soon, children in armed conflict.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

We have some time left. I'm going to need 10 minutes at the end for some committee business that was a late-minute addition just the other night when it was added by members.

I have Mr. Spengemann, Mr. Bezan, Mr. Garrison, and before we go around, if you have a question, just get my attention and I'll get you on the list.

I do have one question. We're taking over from the Germans. The Germans took over from the Dutch, as I understand. If it's the same type of operation, the Germans had Tiger attack helicopters. The Dutch had Apache helicopters. We're going to have our Griffon helicopters. Will the Griffon serve in the same capacity as those others and how will it be configured to do that job, because it's a utility helicopter?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

I'll open up and then I'll provide.... We don't have attack helicopters. Ours are armed escorts, and there is a big distinction to be made, but just let's be clear that just because the allies had attack helicopters in theatre didn't mean they necessarily used them in the way we understood attack helicopters from places like Afghanistan. They certainly have that capability, but we have the means of doing the job that we've been asked to do.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

I would only add that certainly our intent would be to employ the Griffons in a very similar manner as we did in Afghanistan, so the aeromedevac platform—being the Chinook going from the camp in Gao to a mass casualty site—will be under escort of the Griffons, a section of Griffons that would provide overwatch. It would escort in terms of keeping the flanks clear, and certainly it would be weaponized as per the configuration in Afghanistan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Can you give us details on how they would be weaponized in terms of type of armament?

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

My preference would be not to. I think it's important that we not telegraph too publicly the weapon systems we're going to have. If you think of Afghanistan and you imagine the employment of the Griffon in that context, it would be very similar.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you for that.

MP Spengemann, you have five minutes.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I want to return to the idea of core values and why we are doing peacekeeping and raise again...just in the sense of being able to broach it now and hopefully have further discussions in subsequent sections. One of the phenomena of the new conflict is the massive outflow of refugees. That's a humanitarian problem that straddles the military and civilian reconstruction divide, in the sense that we need to protect refugees when they leave, either internally displaced or having to cross national boundaries. Also, when refugees leave, often the educated folks who can run a country leave early.

When we talk about post-conflict reconstruction, who are the people who are going to come back into a place like Iraq or Syria under very different circumstances, much more impoverished and dangerous circumstances later, at the tail end of the conflict, and start to rebuild that country so that there's endogenous effort led by local populations to recreate and rebuild a state?

I just wanted to put that to you as a subject that I'm sure we'll have more detailed discussions on later, but I'd like to get your initial thoughts, please.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

I would say that your point about refugees or displaced people is a very important one. I'm not sure it's a value question, but in terms of values, I would say, if you could sum up our approach, it would be that we believe in an international rules-based order, but sometimes to support that, you need to back up your beliefs with taking some action to shoulder some of the responsibility that goes with defending that rules-based order.

In terms of displaced people, you're quite right; it is not a solution to relocate huge volumes of population to other countries, because those are the very people who are going to be instrumental in building peace and, hopefully, a stable country going forward.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

How would you situate the work on the global compact on migration in the context of that question?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

I think the global compact is aimed at finding a balance between responding to a humanitarian need with 60-plus million people on the move in the world today, and not all of them are going to be able to go back. They need to have pathways to resettle in places that allow them to lead a decent life. At the same time, we need to balance that with the fact that we can't resettle 65 million people in other countries. We have to find ways to allow them to go home. That's where peace operations come into play in terms of facilitating that.