National Defence Committee on April 19th, 2018

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Then are we confident that our troops, when they're going into these war zones with counterterrorism operations on the ground, plus ISIS and al Qaeda operatives fighting back...? And they've been extremely bold. In the last month, there have been three attacks, killing four UN peacekeepers, on UN bases. We're not just talking about out in theatre. They're coming right in to the bases and bringing the fight to us. Are we confident that close combat support operations, the security on the bases, are there to protect our troops when they may not necessarily be on mission?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

I think that if you look at the details of the attacks, you're certainly quite accurate to point out that they've become more bold. However, there have been some effective responses to those as well. The French mission, Operation Barkhane, is a counterterrorism-focused mission, so the UN focus is stabilization. In the context of our mission overseas, we can't reduce the risk to zero in Mali. We can't reduce the risk to zero in any of our missions. What we can do is identify the risk across all domains, and work to mitigate that risk. We have rules of engagement, and we have the means to defend ourselves and to conduct ourselves in a way that reduces the risk, but you can't bring risk down to zero.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Will our troops be armed on base?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

Yes, absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thanks.

MP Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I too want to extend my congratulations to General Bowes and General Meinzinger on their upcoming appointments.

As Mr. Spengemann suggested, this is our first session on peacekeeping, and there's a tendency to run off in all directions, I think, among all of us.

I guess I would say to the chair that this is a motion that I moved almost a year and a half ago. At that time I wrote it relatively broadly, because we didn't know where we were going. We might have written the motion a little differently, given where we are.

I'm wondering whether we will have the opportunity to talk to the minister specifically about the Mali mission as part of these hearings. I just put that on the table for the committee. There are sometimes things that involve political decisions and are better asked to the minister than to those who are in front of us today.

Mr. Gwozdecky, you have described the new situation that Canada is taking on, the new tasks and the new approach. I in no way want to criticize those tasks as being unimportant, but it seems to me it's a step down from our traditional role in peacekeeping, whereby Canada provided very high-level leadership. It's not just boots on the ground that we provided, but high-level leadership, not only in missions that had Canadian troops but in other missions of the United Nations with both civilian and military officials. We also provided very high-level training, which was organized in this country by the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre. I'm wondering whether there's any sense—and this is one of those questions that may be unfair to you—in which we have actually stepped down to a more technical approach to peacekeeping from that leadership role that we have traditionally played.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

Let me address both elements of your question.

One is in terms of leadership. We do not exclude a Canadian taking over the leadership of a UN operation if such an opportunity were to present itself and if it were an opportunity for Canada to make a difference.

Our approach, I would say, is actually more ambitious than you would suggest. Our approach is to try to make a difference in the way the UN runs its peace operations across the board, not just in an operation to which Canada might make a discrete contribution. We have 100,000 peacekeepers in the field. Canada's 600, contributed here or there, is not going to make a transformative difference to UN peace operations.

That's why our approach is to ask, can we fix the systemic issues in the UN, which include its under-representation of women at all levels? Can we fix the training gaps that you have identified, which are really important? We think that's one area in which Canada can bring real value in terms of the kinds of training we can provide and have provided in such places as Afghanistan, which have really had an impact. If we can train the troop-contributing countries better, so that when they go into the field they're making a bigger and a more positive difference, we think we can have an impact more widely across the UN system.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

As I said, I'm not in any way saying that this is not an important initiative.

Given the limits of time, I want to turn to the Department of National Defence.

We get many requests from the United Nations and other groups for Canadian troops. General Bowes touched on it a bit in his presentation. Why is it that Canadian troops are popular? What's the value added that we bring to these missions?

[Major-General A. D. Meinzinger, Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence]

Having deployed on two UN missions that were mandated under the United Nations, I fully believe that we bring well-trained, competent, professional airmen, airwomen, soldiers, and sailors into those sorts of deployments. I think there's a high degree of agility.

Thinking back to my experiences as the wing commander in Afghanistan, I recall I would brag frequently in front of guests using the fighter analogy: we have a turning radius inside our allies, meaning that we're able to respond to short-notice requests and are able to be flexible, but we do so and are so in a very professional way. That's an air force example, but it pervades, I would argue, all of our elements.

As well, looking at the quality of the members of the Canadian Armed Forces—you talked about leadership—I look at the mission in Mali and whom we've identified to be the air task force commander. He has commanded the Chinook squadron in Afghanistan; he is an “A-plus-plus” leader, but he is so because of his experiences operationally.

I think Canadians, more broadly speaking, based on our experience and what we've done, bring that experience to future missions. It's a characteristic that I think is worth noting.

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

If I can provide one additional context, it is that many of the nations that contribute forces are contributing conscripts; we have a professional military, a volunteer force. We do have a rigorous professional development system, but in all my travels it keeps coming back to one thing: our values-based system. In that sense we may wear a uniform, but we're Canadian and it's about what we bring onto the international stage as Canadian values. Notwithstanding the professionalism of our military, from a military perspective, Canadian values are in demand.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I know I have very little time, but as one of the members of the committee who spent some time in the conflict zones in both East Timor and Afghanistan, I am very interested in the discussion of a rapid deployment force. While it was some time ago, I was co-coordinator of a human rights observer mission in East Timor when we were calling for a UN force ready to intervene if the independence vote went as we thought it would. The force arrived much too late, 10,000 people died, and the infrastructure of the country was destroyed. Canadians made a large effort in rebuilding it.

Where do we stand with this rapid deployment force that Mr. Gwozdecky talked about? How large a force are we talking about, and what circumstances?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

In this context, are you talking about the quick reaction force?

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Yes.

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

The government will still have to go through a selection process with the United Nations as to where and when this force deploys. Then from our perspective, the environment that we go into in the country will determine how that force will be composed.

You would understand that even from military requirements, certain countries would lend themselves to a land-based or a vehicle-based response force, and in other areas it would have to be aviation-based, based on geography, the lack of roads, rail, infrastructure, and the like.

From a quick reaction force perspective, we're still a long way away in having detailed military planning at my level, because I'm not involved in some others.

I'll turn it over to colleagues on both sides as to how the government will go through the selection process and the chief of the defence staff.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Unfortunately I'm going to hold it there, but there will be more time and I'm sure we can come back to that.

I'm going to yield the floor to MP Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Since the March 19 announcement by Minister Freeland and Minister Sajjan about the deployment of an air task force with the UN Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in Mali, the MINUSMA, have discussions been held with Mali, the partner countries and the UN to prepare for the arrival of Canada's contribution?

To that end, what are the next major steps in deploying this mission?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

Since the government announced the decision, at the strategic level the team has engaged our United Nations partners with the kind of military and operational planning that we would need to take the mission forward.

In addition, we conducted a reconnaissance mission—what the UN calls a site survey—into Mali to talk to partners. Concurrently, we also had teams in Europe as recently as two weeks ago, talking with major partners about how we would conduct our entry into the theatre at the same time as other nations would be coming out.

Just last week I was in Europe talking with all my European colleagues, a European Union representative, and allies involved in Africa, including the French forces and the United Nations planners, about the sequence going forward in the next little while. In the next two weeks we will conduct a more detailed reconnaissance and site survey with regard to sustainment of our mission or approach that we will use to go in, and we are working closely with Germany—the nation that we are replacing—from an aviation task force perspective.

As German helicopters come out of the mission, Canadian helicopters go in, and it's not all at the same time. It's a phased approach. We're not talking about international airports, we're talking of some very small airfields and facilities, so as a helicopter comes out, another one goes in; we sequence this.

This is a normal tempo that occurs with every mission, even if it's a Canadian rotation. That's the lie ahead in the next few months, with a view that we'll activate this theatre some time in June. Our forces will flow in, the main bodies will flow in some time in July, and in the third week of July we will see Germany's helicopters come out in the final sense, and Canada's will be on the ground and will be operational in early August.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

If I may add one more point, from the strategic level, in terms of the activity ongoing, next week, we will have a small delegation in the UN. We're continuing to work towards the establishment of an MOU. This is a normal protocol with the UN. It's a product of some of the consequences of the knowledge that we've gained from the reconnaissance, so it's a full on, all-team effort as a priority to line us up for this deployment as General Bowes has indicated.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

During a high-level thematic debate organized by the United Nations General Assembly, in May 2016, the commitment of francophone states in peacekeeping operations had been reaffirmed.

What do you think the contribution is of Canadian and francophone troops in peacekeeping missions like the one in Mali?

[Jeff Senior, Deputy Director, Peace Operations, Stabilization and Conflict Policy Division , Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you for the question. It's a very good one. I will just offer a very general observation.

I had the honour and pleasure to serve in Mali for several years in our mission there, as the UN mission was being set up and as the peace agreement was being concluded. The linguistic capabilities of Canada are among the reasons our participation has been sought. In a number of instances, we have witnessed first-hand some linguistic divides within the UN mission itself between, say, English-speaking groups in a particular sector, who don't have the ability in French, and other sectors where you may have French or other troops operating or French-speaking troops operating.

Among the many other competencies that have been outlined, I think the linguistic abilities are among the reasons that Canada's participation has been actively solicited in this part of the world.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Following our government's March 19 announcement about this new peacekeeping strategy, how would you describe the reaction of Canada's allies and foreign partners?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

Sir, that's quite possible. As a military, our reputation is one that, although we're a small force, we're very agile and very professional. The reaction that I got last week when working with colleagues was very similar to the reaction I have seen over my three years in this position. Similar to when we went into Ukraine, we were working with other nations in Ukraine, which is very similar to Latvia. It's great to have Canadian military personnel that are part of the team.

At a strategic military and political level, I also think this resonates as well that this is a commitment of a professional capability that is coming into play. It has been received most positively.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

You can have one more quick question and a response.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

During a visit to Canada, the President of Ukraine expressed a desire to see Canada contribute to a UN peace mission in Ukraine. If one were to emerge, would such a contribution be ruled out now that the government has committed to a deployment to Mali?