National Defence Committee on April 19th, 2018

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you for that.

When I raise the concept of values adjunct to the problem of refugees, I meant the responsibility to protect civilian populations when they're on the move.

To our colleagues on the military side, what challenges are arising there in the sense of keeping civilian populations that are forced into migration safe within conflict zones?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

Do you mean in the context of the mission in Mali?

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

For example, but others as well; potentially Syria later on, and Iraq during its heyday of conflict.

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

Our mandate is to support MINUSMA in the context of the capability that we're bringing to the table, so it's not one that the air task force is optimized to fulfill. It's hard for me to answer in the context because I'm focused on that piece.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

If I may, one of the core training functions that we impart when we train other countries is how to ensure that militaries deployed in the field abide by international humanitarian law and the law of armed conflict. In providing that training, we hopefully reduce the likelihood that a military might be involved in abuse of civilians or unnecessary harm to civilians along the way.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Operationally, at least conceptually, it will extend to the effort to build safe zones, if and when appropriate within war zones, within conflict zones, for migrating or displaced civilian populations.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

I guess in theory you could.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, thanks. That's all I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

MP Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Gwozdecky, you've already said that in Mali there's no peace to keep. Would you say Mali is a failed state, or is it recovering?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

I would say that Mali is a state where there is a peace process that is struggling to move ahead and make progress. I wouldn't say it's a failed state, because there is a government that is in place that is working to try to exert its authority across the entirety of its territory. There are certainly pockets of Mali that one might describe as ungoverned space where these terrorist groups and these criminal groups can operate more freely.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

As we also talked about, unfortunately, Canadians still have this nostalgic view of what peacekeeping is. They think about Cyprus and the Golan Heights.

You can even look at the UN itself. The chief of staff for UN forces in Mali, Brigadier-General Daniel Menaouine has said, “The state isn't in a position to safeguard its territory, the Malian army is undergoing a complete overhaul”. When you think about it, they actually carried out a military coup. We don't know if we can even trust them, and as he said, “We're not on a peacekeeping mission.”

How do we make that resonate? I think Canadians are thinking that we're going over there with blue helmets and that everything is just going to be fine.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

You're right in identifying that there is conflict in Mali. There is instability in Mali, but at the same time there is a legitimate government. There will be elections in three or four months in Mali to bring a new government into place, so, there is democracy that is trying to take hold and assert its control over the entirety of its territory.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

The head of MINUSMA, Mr. Annadif said at the end of 2017, “The terrorists are waging a real asymmetrical war against us--and I’d like to emphasize the word ‘war'.”

You guys are saying it's a complex conflict. The head of MINUSMA is saying it's a war. Do you agree with that statement?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

I don't know how one defines these terms. If you're a civilian in the middle of bullets flying, you know it's bad. You're quite right that there are pockets of Mali where conflict is ongoing, and it's hot and it's bloody.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I know the French have described the foes they are encountering. The terrorist organizations are better trained and better equipped than what we experienced in Afghanistan.

General Bowes, are we prepared to deal with that type of adversary?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

There is an enormous variety of groups in play, and there's no doubt that some of the groups are very well equipped. There are groups that are affiliated with Daesh. There are groups that are affiliated with al Qaeda, and they're not to be underestimated.

I think I've got to go to a point. You would be surprised about how those in uniform at senior levels, when we're looking at the context of the international order today, find that the free-flowing use of the term “war” carries with it as much or more baggage as the way people would think about nostalgia towards peacekeeping. In other words, it comes with a mindset that is not as helpful towards the tasks that we have today and the construct of moving forward.

We're watching the rules-based order under assault in the world by a combination of trans-criminal organizations, violent extremists, and malign actors. When those three elements come together, the convergence of those bubbles is a brew that crosses parts of the world where boundaries are very difficult borders, very difficult to enforce. That's why I refer to it as a complex conflict.

The other part of this is that when people talk about the concept of war from a western democratic perspective, it invokes the authority of governments and parliaments, and yet conflict is ongoing below that line in many areas by groups that are employing a variety of violent and other tactics to achieve their objectives.

I think that we need to look at this more holistically going forward. It's something that is very difficult for many Canadians to understand given where we live, given the relative peace and tranquillity that we enjoy in our country, and looking at how the world has fundamentally changed over the last number of years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you for engaging.

MP Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

One of the veterans in my riding who served in Cyprus—in talking about the notion that there is no peace to keep and that things are more complex—made the observation that people are looking at Cyprus from the success end and not the pointy end when he went in. His argument was that peacekeeping, while some of the factors have changed, is fundamentally the same. You don't do peacekeeping missions in Norway or Switzerland. You go into conflict zones.

His question to me was whether people are really recognizing the value of UN peacekeeping operations, the successes they've had in the past. He was concerned that they're focusing on the failures or the challenges more than the successes.

I guess, Mr. Gwozdecky, that's really directed at you.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

I think it's an important point to remember that it's not all doom and gloom and that there are very positive elements in this overall story. Even in Mali we see hopeful signs. Agricultural land under production, under use, has increased, so they're more able to address their food insecurity as a result of the stabilizing effect that having a UN peace mission has brought. We have also seen a decline in maternal/newborn/child mortality. There are a number of positive developments in Mali, and those, in part, derive from the fact that there is a UN mission providing a stabilizing effect. We could compare Mali today to Mali in 2012. After the coup, two-thirds of the territory was ungoverned space. We know, when we look around the world, what happens when there's a sustained period of ungoverned space, like in Afghanistan, like in Iraq. You have the emergence of groups like al Qaeda and the Islamic State, which become global threats. That's certainly not something we want to see repeated.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I think that's an important point you make.

You made reference earlier to Canada's development assistance when you were asked, “Why Mali?” I think that's another piece of the story that's sometimes missing. Could you just comment on our country-of-focus efforts in Mali over the past years?

[Jeff Senior]

I can say a few things about the development program in Mali. In terms of financing, it's as Mr. Gwozdecky said. We are the second-largest provider of development bilateral assistance in Mali. For Canada, it's about our fifth-largest partner, looking outward, so it's in the top 20. The spending is in the order of approximately $125 million a year, and it's focused in some of the critical areas, such as the provision of health care, maternal and infant mortality being one of the more positive stories to tell. It's also focused on food security and agricultural production, along with a number of governance-type pieces, such as working with internal audits and accountability within the government. Those are the large areas of priority. I think, as was just stated, that there is a stabilizing benefit to some of that development work in terms of social capital in Mali and not seeing further erosion in that space while the government struggles to face the broader security challenges.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Great. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Leona.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I'd like to leverage what my colleague was talking about in terms of how we define success. Does the UN have a robust mechanism for defining and measuring success? Does Canada, in turn, have its own method for measuring success?