Evidence of meeting #11 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was illness.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Geneviève Bernatchez  Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Rakesh Jetly  Senior Psychiatrist, Directorate of Mental Health, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence
Kyndra Rotunda  Professor, Military and International Law, Chapman University, As an Individual
Jill Wry  Deputy Judge Advocate General, Military Justice, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence

2:20 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

Again, I think that's a very important point. We do encourage members to include their families, but health conditions are private. If I have a health condition, and my spouse asks my doctor about it, the doctor is not going to speak to them without my permission.

We encourage members to bring in their families. We encourage them to bring in their spouses. I think spouses give incredible, what we call, “collateral information”. They can certainly help and can certainly be part of the treatment, if necessary, with couples counselling and family counselling. The permission to allow other people to come in relies on the member.

If we get a phone call from a concerned family member who gives us information, we certainly will be in a receive mode. We certainly will listen to the person respectfully and hear what they're saying, note it, document it and use it, but, without permission, we're not able to transmit and share the personal health information of an individual.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you for that.

What are the reasons for the differences we see in the mental health problems of women and of men in the Canadian Armed Forces? Is the difference due to a different approach on the part of the Directorate of Force Health Protection?

2:20 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

No, I don't think so. The differences between male and female rates of mood, anxiety disorders, suicide attempts, addictions and those types of things are basically the same as they are in society. There's a biological difference between men and women, and that difference seems to carry itself into the armed forces.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.

December 11th, 2020 / 2:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for participating again in our committee meeting, and I apologize for the difficulties we experienced on Monday.

Colonel Jetly, again, congratulations. I've had the pleasure of working with you for almost a decade. I remember with fondness our travels across the country when I was parliamentary secretary. We were trying reach out to our troops to deal with their injuries and illnesses and the supports they were receiving in the Canadian Armed Forces. Some of those conversations were difficult, but I think we learned a lot from that.

Now that you're looking at parting ways with the armed forces and moving into the private sector, when you look back on your 30-plus years as one of the lead psychiatrists, and for at least the last decade the lead psychiatrist in the Canadian Armed Forces.... I know that in some of the early conversations we had, there wasn't even clinical terminology around PTSD for what it encompassed and how it manifested. Can you talk to how mental health has changed, from the standpoint of treatment and the science, in your time of service, up to where we are today?

I know we established the centre of excellence at the Royal to help our current serving members and our veterans deal with post-traumatic stress disorder and other operational stress injuries. I am wondering if you could talk about how things have changed in the last decade for sure, but also over the course of your career.

2:20 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

Well, I could give an hour-long lecture on that. I do remember our travels—

2:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I'd probably come and see that.

2:20 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

I think in some ways I pinch myself. I think of deploying to Rwanda in the early 1990s, where mental health was an afterthought; we didn't think we needed it, but people who went suffered, and of course there's Roméo Dallaire and that whole story.

In one way mental health was the poor cousin of health care. Thankfully to the Canadian Armed Forces, the leadership and a few broken souls along the way, there was the realization that mental health is important and paramount, despite the thousands of years of history, knowing that psychological injuries have always outnumbered physical injuries in war and in deployments, whether World War I or World War II. I think that's the piece, a watershed moment for us in the Canadian Armed Forces, and our allies are extremely envious of the way we managed to create this whole operational stress injury paradigm.

What we've done is that we've basically given it footing and we have the Sacrifice Medal like the Purple Heart, the American one, albeit the latter doesn't recognize PTSD. With our medal, if three members are hit by an IED explosion, and one person dies and one person loses two legs, and the third person gets PTSD, all three receive the Sacrifice Medal. If you understand the military, that sort of recognition in pinning something on is important. I think for the whole oversight paradigm it's important.

More recently this interest in understanding guilt, shame, anger, the whole moral injury concept, which may explain some of the suicides, and also some of the resistance to conventional treatments, I think is really important.

The two main things that we're going to continue to work on in the future are understanding the biology, understanding what's happening in the brain, what's happening in the body, the inflammation, the heart disease, the diabetes, which seem to be higher in people with mental illness, and why soldiers with PTSD die earlier than others. I think Veterans Affairs, of course, cares about it.

I think that's important. I think leveraging technology, using your Fitbit, your wearables, getting to that point where we can create this 24-hour caring system using technology and things is important.

I still think the whole idea of personalized medicine is important. We're getting there, but the idea of the trial and error is frustrating for doctors and patients, so we need to understand a little bit more which treatments are going to work for whom, and start with the first one that we think is most likely going to work.

We've come an incredible way, and I pinch myself. I remember giving talks in Gagetown, where it was almost like I was being mocked for the touchy-feely talk, and I compare it to right now when nobody is laughing anymore at mental health.

I think we've come a long way, but it's a journey and there's a long way to go. I do believe that one of the other really important things is our engagement by looking up and out with the civilian community, and working with Bell and Bell's Let's Talk, and all of the different things that we're doing, because I truly believe that for soldiers, like athletes, if we're able to talk about our own mental illness and difficulties, I think that's important for the kids and for society. If the soldier can do it, the toughest guy who's out there can do it, why can't I if I'm an adolescent struggling? I think we've come a long way.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

As we're coming that long way, are you seeing a major change in the culture, versus where we were before when if you were feeling bad, you're weak?

2:25 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

I think the change is so great, to be honest with you, I have to pinch myself. I've got leaders here on this panel with me and I've had the privilege of working with the rear admiral, and the way she looks after her people....

The calls that we get are about care for our people, and people are saying, “Hey, what are we going to do, what's available for our people?” I think that “people first” is almost like a cliché within military settings, but I believe it's genuine.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I know that the leadership—

2:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much.

I'll have to go to Mr. Robillard.

2:25 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question goes to Rear-Admiral Bernatchez and Colonel Jill Wry.

According to an answer given at the meeting of this committee on October 23, 2018, since 2000, only one member of the Canadian Armed Forces has been convicted under section 98(c). In your opinion, what explains that situation?

2:25 p.m.

RAdm Geneviève Bernatchez

Thank you for your question. I will try to answer it. Then, my colleague can take over.

As I was telling the committee a little earlier, it is very difficult for us to explain why a legislative provision is used or not used.

I indicated that 70% of the offences are always the same, so it is very difficult to explain why this provision is used or not used. However, I can certainly say that section 98(c) has not been regularly used since 2000. Its very specific goal is to establish penalties for, or to deal with situations when, someone wilfully harms himself with intent to avoid his service responsibilities.

In my testimony earlier, I said that, between 1939 and 1945, during the Second World War, this section—or its equivalent at the time—was used more than 300 times. So we can see a correlation between periods of heightened operational activity and the need to use that section.

It has also been brought to my attention that there are many offences in the Code of Service Discipline for which charges are not regularly laid. Refusing an immunization is an example of one offence that will not normally incur a penalty. It does not mean that we do not need provisions for those situations. It simply means that, at a certain point, in a certain situation, the offence is not automatically punished.

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

What are the factors that explain a higher rate of suicide in the Army, compared to the other forces?

2:30 p.m.

RAdm Geneviève Bernatchez

I think that Dr. Jetly is in a better position to answer that question.

2:30 p.m.

Col Rakesh Jetly

There are many reasons. Traditionally, in most militaries and most of our allies, it's the junior members of the army, specifically the combat arms. We did see an uptick in that group, which has sort of settled down in the last few months. You can't absolutely say, but it also does reflect the people who are exposed most likely to the war, and they're in the trenches more often.

When we have 2,700 people or so deployed to Afghanistan, the few hundred people who are part of the battle group that spend most of the time outside the wire are certainly impacted.

There are also other theories. Junior members of the air force tend to be more technical, and tend to have different types of duties, and maybe different personalities are attracted. Certainly, if we're going to look at the near past for most of our military and our allied militaries, the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and such can probably explain some of the differences. However, association and causality are, of course, two different things.

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Attempts by parliamentarians to rescind section 98(c) of the National Defence Act have been met with failure.

In your opinion, why has it not been possible to rescind section 98(c) of the National Defence Act?

2:30 p.m.

RAdm Geneviève Bernatchez

That question is for me, I assume.

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Correct.

2:30 p.m.

RAdm Geneviève Bernatchez

It is very difficult for me to answer that question because I am not on these committees and I am not a member of Parliament. I think that question should go your colleagues.

However, I will certainly be pleased to continue to support you in your deliberations and to help you make informed decisions.

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

We move on to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

2:30 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We are having a really fantastic discussion today. I just want to say that we are getting excellent answers to our questions.

The principle of universality of service in the Canadian Forces requires that members be ready for service. But exceptions can be made for mental health reasons.

My question goes to Professor Rotunda.

First, I am delighted to meet you. I am not sure if you mentioned this earlier, but does the principle exist anywhere else in the world?

2:30 p.m.

Professor, Military and International Law, Chapman University, As an Individual

Dr. Kyndra Rotunda

We have a disability process that our service members go through. Sometimes, depending on the level of disability, a service member might be separated with severance pay: a one-time payment. If they're significantly disabled—we consider the threshold to be more than 30% disabled—they can be separated with a disability retirement.

There are mechanisms to try to help service members get out of the services—

2:35 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Does the same thing exist elsewhere in the world?

That was the gist of my question.