Evidence of meeting #13 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was suicide.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
Exactly. It's seen as disciplinary action. We're being cornered. I was put in an office with the person who was harassing me. I wasn't on the premises with them, but I was put direclty in line with them and made to feel like I was the problem, not the Canadian forces.
We're being cornered, and they keep hitting us. We are subject to disciplinary action and bad reports, which shouldn't be the case. We're really made to feel like a number and—excuse the expression—like shit. That's the reality.
Conservative
Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to take a moment as well to thank all three witnesses for their heartfelt, compelling and quite thought-disturbing comments here today.
As a quick backdrop, I've been an MP for a year. Before here, I was the mayor of a community that encompasses Base Borden, one of the largest training bases in Canada. I worked closely with the base during my years municipally. One of the things I noticed, and certainly a lot of the people in our community noticed, was some of what has come out in comments here today.
The military police would come off the base. A lot of the individuals don't live on that base anymore. They've become part of our community, which is fantastic. They're our hockey coaches, soccer coaches or are getting involved in whatever it might be. However, a lot of times, they'll come off the base for different things. I know some of them unfortunately are suicides, but it could be assaults or whatever it might be. You were talking earlier about drug addiction, alcohol abuse and things of that nature. Even I, in regard to the suicides, unless the hospital told me, these were not things we really knew in the community.
I know last week we had Bell Let's Talk Day. Basically, the premise is, let us talk about these issues that are affecting people. As a past mayor I wonder, do all three of you think we can do a better job?
Let's talk about this. We have the 2017 suicide strategy, together with Veterans Affairs, and I thank Randall for asking that question, because it's something I want to know constantly: Where are we at? Are we improving? Where will we be? Do you think we need to find a way for the military to stress what's going on in people? That's the first question.
I'm going to ask both questions, because we have only five minutes. You can answer the second one as well.
The second question goes to the fact that you're saying you often have to travel far for help. I've stated that before. If you have mental issues, you have to drive, from where I am, an hour and a half to Toronto in traffic. It's just not good. Do you think it's something that we should really invest in, perhaps with private enterprise, on the base?
Investing in those types of agencies or institutions that can help people immediately, and veterans after the fact because a lot of them continue to live around here, do you think that is one of the key elements that could help save lives and perhaps save relationships as well?
Social Service Worker, Laurentian Integrated Health and Social Services Centre, As an Individual
I can answer that question.
Indeed, agreements should be established with private practices to allow people to remain within a reasonable distance of their homes. Many of us have children and work. We also need to take care of our spouses who are sick. My husband, for example, can no longer drive in traffic because he becomes aggressive behind the wheel. So we had to change the appointment times. He now has a driver.
Distance is a significant factor. We lose a lot of time on the road, and we don't have enough time to deal with the problems. To have this leeway and to be able to access counselling services would be a very good thing
Conservative
As an Individual
I would.
In terms of return on investment, you won't get much of a difference. It's really the culture to be able to discuss openly issues surrounding mental health, to discuss suicide or suicide ideation within the ranks. Military leaders need to be more open, show humility and discuss this with their troops to show that they're human, that the challenges they face at home and professionally match what others are facing and that there's a broad spectrum of these issues.
The minute we are more open about it, the minute that culture shifts, there will be less of these surprises, because they won't be surprises. There will be a greater dialogue among peers with the chain of command, helping those members get the services they need.
It's really about cultural change and putting those resources toward increased awareness training, increased mandatory training and creating metrics. We need to create targets that leaders need to strive for and reach, because they'll be measured on it annually. That's where you will get the best return.
Social Service Worker, Laurentian Integrated Health and Social Services Centre, As an Individual
Allow me to add something. OSISS-type peer support organizations, both member-to-member and spouse-to-spouse, should also be promoted a little more. This would be good. Programs like Bell Let's Talk are all well and good, but people don't want to talk about their mental health issues. It has to stay a little bit internal. If there was better promotion and acceptance among military peers, we could definitely save some of them.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Ms. Archambault, Mr. Chauhan and Ms. Cyr, thank you for being with us and for your testimony. I'd also like to thank you for making the decision to speak to us today. It's very important to hear from you directly and personally to fully understand the extent of the problem and the nuances.
Mr. Chauhan, my deepest condolences to you and to your family on the loss of Warrant Officer Sanjeev Raman Chauhan, your brother. I hope that in some way our conversation today will be part of honouring his life and service.
In your opening remarks, you spoke about the systemic challenges we're facing. There's a lot of talk about systemic issues. It's Black History Month, day one. We're looking at systemic anti-Black racism in Canada. We're looking at equity, diversity and inclusion systemically across so many different areas. We're looking at gender equality very prominently as a way of lifting up the Canadian Forces as an employer for all Canadians.
If you look at the continuum of mental health, all the way from wellness to the worst outcome that your brother suffered, suicide, and if you look at service all the way from recruitment to transition back to civilian life in the armed forces, what are the big systemic changes that need to be made to really get to the root of this problem?
There were some solutions discussed earlier in testimony with colleagues that were very promising, some of which are already under way. How do we change what you referred to as culture in your previous exchange with my colleague, Mr. Benzen?
How do we change the system itself to be much more sensitive to this issue that really starts probably much earlier on symptomatically than when somebody even contemplates suicide or self-harm?
As an Individual
That's a very big question.
Based on the nature of how the Canadian Armed Forces works with the hierarchy, the ability for lower-ranking members to come forward and speak up in a town hall or any sort of forum won't happen. It never will. It hasn't.
Having something like an anonymous survey with pointed questions to then measure, not unlike the public service employee survey.... I think that's a very effective tool to establish a baseline of where we are and to identify specific areas that we need to improve.
In the cradle-to-grave perspective for a member, from recruitment to release, I don't think any one thing would help a member throughout their career. I think it's a matter of identifying those gaps within the system and then working towards filling those gaps, getting input from the members who are facing these challenges without repercussion and creating that baseline for measurement.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
I'd like to get the views of Madame Archambault and Madame Cyr, as well.
In your view, is the system of help that's available right now still too demand-based, in the sense that it's up to the individual service member to seek help at the very time she or he, because of the illness and injury, isn't in a position to do that? Should there be more of a shift towards a supply-based approach to providing health care and mental wellness?
Social Service Worker, Laurentian Integrated Health and Social Services Centre, As an Individual
Absolutely. People who are at a point where they are thinking about suicide aren't at all in a psychological state to seek help, let alone from their loved ones. It's impossible.
As an Individual
Exactly. When you go out, you are already affected by taking medication and you lose your memory.
In my case, in terms of Canadian Forces and VAC services, it's a monumental flop. I wasn't adequately supported in my transition. They blamed me and said I should have transitioned properly. We lack support and are being left to fend for ourselves. In addition to having physical and mental problems, we have to deal with the endless paperwork. We don't know what to do anymore. It isn't true that we have guidance; there's a big gap in this regard.
I have to fight to get $27,000 back. Otherwise, it would mean that I wouldn't have had a salary for a year. I gave 12 years of my life to the Canadian Armed Forces, and now I have to fight for what I'm owed. It's unthinkable. There should be a lot more staff at VAC who are skilled in this area, even if it means employing former military personnel who know the system so they can better guide us.
Often, the problem is that these are people who have no knowledge of the military and issues. They don't care a bit about us. It's a pity, but that's the way it is. We're numbers.
Liberal
Liberal
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
All three witnesses mentioned that it was difficult, upon leaving the Canadian Forces, to get medical follow-up or to know what to do to obtain the social and other services they were entitled to. I know this is a serious problem, and it needs to be improved as soon as possible.
Ms. Cyr, who should be contacted to complain about the follow-up? Is it the ombudsman? What does the service you receive from the ombudsman look like?
As an Individual
We are always referred to the ombudsman for all sorts of things. He is like our ultimate tool, and he becomes our advocate.
In my case, I called and asked for help because I owed Manulife $25,000 after I bought a business to help me, in addition to helping my colleagues and the company with mental health issues. I was told that they were sorry, but many of the items in my file weren't accepted and others were. I asked what he meant, as I was talking about the $25,000 owed to Manulife, while I was being told the details of my case. The individual on the other end of the phone said that he was also a military veteran and that we weren't being helped. He told me that I had to manage on my own and that I just had to fill out my application.
Fortunately, I had spoken with my Veterans Affairs Canada worker the day before, and she told me that since fibromyalgia was not yet recognized by the forces, it could not be included in my reintegration program. That was the negative aspect of my situation. However, the next day, the employee from the ombudsman's office presented this to me like a huge barrier. Honestly, that day, if I had been in a bad situation or in a depressive phase, as I sometimes am, I would have killed myself because I was in such a state. He confused me so much instead of helping me that I was no longer in control of myself.
I had to validate the facts again with my counsellor. She told me that this was exactly what we had talked about the day before. I then told her that at the ombudsman's office I had just been told something else.
This individual is supposed to be a military veteran. Maybe we should be careful about who is hired and their ability to help people.
It really wasn't pleasant.
Liberal
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I want to express my condolences again to Mr. Chauhan for the loss of his brother. I'm also going to ask him to do something difficult here.
Two of my constituents I've gotten to know over the past decade, Sheila and Shaun Fynes, lost their son to death by suicide in the Canadian military nearly a decade ago. We were told in committee that the processes have changed since then. They talked about the poor notification process and the difficulty in getting information after the death by suicide.
What you said today struck me as a lack of change in the way families were treated after suicide. I know it's very difficult, but could I ask you to say a bit more about the notification process, the release of the body and the other kinds of obstacles and barriers families face?
As an Individual
Absolutely.
Immediately, the notification.... I'm in Ottawa, my parents are in Ottawa, my sister-in-law is in Petawawa and my brother was in Petawawa. His CO and my sister-in-law called to inform me as soon as he was discovered. That was quick, and a team was being sent to notify my parents. I raced over to see my parents to let them know before the team got there. It was definitely the hardest thing I've ever had to do.
The following day, I went to Petawawa to help my sister-in-law. There were departmental or designated assistants who were fantastic. Everything in terms of the red tape, the bureaucracy, the process—that was hard. It wasn't as if someone sat us down and said, hey, this is the list of things to do. It was only because I was in the military and a bureaucrat and know how poorly websites and information are laid out that I was able to hunt it down, reach out to a friend to get an information booklet on it and guide her through it.
The frustration of trying to find his body, that was extremely disappointing. He died on base. It was the military police who were called. They should have been able to tell me—it's within their jurisdiction—but nobody could.
The process.... The first thing I asked on the first day was to get the paperwork for the continuation of the medical plan services. That didn't come until I wrote a letter to the minister's office and she got that paperwork, which was over a month later. There was no one at any point who was able to hold our hand, a single point of contact to walk us through the process and to make sure everything was okay. Don't get me wrong; the designated assistants are there to do that, but they are members in trade, the same trade as my brother. They're not administrative clerks. They're not people who understand the release process, so they're just playing the middle man. It is difficult. It is frustrating, and even on release.... For my release, I was quickly shown the door. It was a medical release, and once it was recognized that I was gainfully employed—I was in the reserves at the time— it was, “Oh, you've got a good job, fare thee well.”
In the case of my brother, it was pretty similar. There were other complications. For example, he had a pending court martial. He wasn't convicted. It didn't go through. In trying to gain him access to the National Military Cemetery, we got a response saying, no, he couldn't access the cemetery because he had a pending court martial, yet he wasn't convicted. Again, I had to fight for that, for him to gain access.
There's no real single point of contact. Having a single point of contact with a single list that tells you what to do and who to call—you have to go to CRA for this, you have to go to the funeral home for this, you have to contact Veterans Affairs for that, you have to contact the transition centre for this, you have to contact....There are so many different parties you need to contact. There should be a single point of contact in the administration who is knowledgeable. That's where the solution is.
Having the designated assistant is a step in the right direction, but there's more to do. There was no social worker or psychologist who was there to provide support to my sister-in-law and my nephews. The chaplain was there the whole way through and, again, was a very caring individual who provided excellent service, the same as the designated assistants.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair and through you, to our witnesses.
First of all, thank you for sharing what must be very painful memories and even a painful process to go through and to talk to us about today.
My first questions are for Mr. Chauhan. I'd like to know, first of all, how long the delay was between the court martial and the time your brother died.
As an Individual
The incident occurred in June 2019, and his court martial was scheduled for October 19, 2020, over a year later.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Was this court martial something that would pertain only to the military, or was it something that had he done it in civilian life he would have been in trouble too?
