Evidence of meeting #13 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was suicide.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Robillard.
To other committee members, for those with five or six minutes of question time, I'm probably going to take the better part of a minute from you—from everyone. For those who have only a short amount, I will let it stand the way it is. Everyone else can expect to lose about a minute, just to keep close to being on time and to give our witnesses the kind of respect and dignity they deserve.
Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Madam Chair, we started this meeting about fifteen minutes late, so instead of cutting us off time on this important topic, I'd like to extend the meeting by about 10 to 15 minutes and ensure that all of us get our share of time to question the witnesses and put this all on the record. This is important to our study of mental health in the armed forces.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
I agree with that, but we're already going to go 15 minutes over. Do we want to go 15 minutes further?
I'll try to manage it as well as I can, but I know that other people have other committees and things afterwards. I'll try to be as generous as possible, but I'm going to really stick to the rules.
Okay? Thanks, everyone.
We go now to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe. Go ahead, please.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
To begin, I'd like to thank the three witnesses appearing before us today. I think all your testimonies were poignant. The word that springs to mind is “courage”. There's the courage it took for you to come and testify before this committee today, but also the courage that I imagine you have to show on a daily basis. Frankly, you have my admiration.
My first question is for Ms. Cyr.
Suicide is a very serious problem. Do you think the Canadian Armed Forces are proactive in dealing with mental health issues and suicide, or do they step in only when it's too late?
12:05 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you for your question, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.
People are being treated far too late, until they are at the end of their rope. For me, personally, it wasn't until I said I was going to do magic that I was taken seriously. We always said we didn't break the rules of the Canadian Armed Forces. The harassment was always on the borderline of what is right and what is wrong. I had to say that I was going to take my own life if it didn't stop. I even mentioned what I had.
At first, I was even asked why I would talk to the media. I said that the day I was going to take my life, I would write a letter speaking out about what was happening in the Canadian Armed Forces and that they wouldn't have the chance to hide all the suicides they were hiding. I told them that the media would be made aware of what happened in the Canadian Armed Forces and where to find my body if I ever did it. I was asked why I would notify the media. I said it was because they were hiding the reality of what we are going through.
So, they act much too late. Suicides occur almost every day among our members, whether they are active or not. This is unacceptable. When they say that they talk about mental health every day, that they are doing everything they can to prevent suicides, and that they provide support and care to members, it's not true. It's not true that we have all that.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Excuse me, but I want to make the most of the time we have.
You just talked about this, but how do superiors deal with physicians' findings related to mental health?
12:05 p.m.
As an Individual
That's a very good question.
In my case, when I went to the second floor for help and was taken seriously, I was given a doctor's note. In the Canadian Armed Forces, when you're on leave, you can't be more than 50 kilometres from home. My family is in New Brunswick, and I live in Quebec City. My other family is in Montreal. I have to drive about two and a half hours to get to Montreal or New Brunswick.
The doctor and the mental health people gave me a note to forward to my superiors so that they would allow me to visit my family so that I could talk about my problem, get some fresh air and, most importantly, get support. I'm all alone at Valcartier, in Quebec City. My immediate family isn't here. What have I received from my superiors? They sent me back my note with a negative response saying that I had to stay at Valcartier because I had mandated programs to attend, and I had to go to my appointments. I didn't have any appointments. I was on leave and needed my family's support. I received absolutely nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero.
Instead, they started calling me morning, noon and night, without talking on the other end. I contacted the police, but they told me that since I hadn't received any death threats, they couldn't verify who was associated with those phone numbers. This coincided rather well with the major's note refusing to let me go see my family. This went on for months. People went down my street. That was the support I got from my superiors.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I'd like to ask you one last question because I think I'm running out of time.
First of all, I want to congratulate you on your café.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
It must be good for the members and veterans that you've taken this initiative.
Do you think mental health is taboo among members and veterans?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
It is a huge taboo in the Canadian Armed Forces. Even among colleagues, we don't want to be labelled as having a mental health issue or suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.
When I was told, the first thought I had was that I hadn't been to Afghanistan, so I couldn't be suffering from post-traumatic stress. However, I was made to understand that harassment was one of the causes. I ended up with physical health problems, including fibromyalgia, which is the result of post-traumatic stress, and migraines. So, in addition to having a mental health issue, I was overwhelmed to have a lot of physical health problems
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I think Ms. Archambault wanted to talk about the fact that it's taboo.
12:10 p.m.
Social Service Worker, Laurentian Integrated Health and Social Services Centre, As an Individual
Yes, it's really taboo. My husband's diagnosis was made quickly. Once the valve opened, he never went back to work. We went to the hospital once, and he never went back to work again. I was asked to say that he had a congenital degenerative heart condition, so the chain of command wouldn't know he was being looked at for post-traumatic shock. People called my house for several weeks, and I had to give cockamamie answers.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
February 1st, 2021 / 12:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
As this is the last day of our hearings on mental health, I just want to note for the chair that we were promised by the Canadian Armed Forces we would get a report on the number of deaths by suicide in 2020. I don't believe we have received that information yet. Of course, this is also to note that I was disturbed by the comment that the numbers don't really indicate anything on an annual basis, because what we'd like to see is a trend downward and certainly that's not what we've seen.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Secondly, Rear-Admiral Bernatchez promised us a paper on self-harm in the military codes of conduct of other armed forces. I believe there are significant differences. I don't believe we've received that either.
Let me turn to the witnesses now and say a tremendous thank you for being here. I know that it's difficult to talk about personal situations, though I'm sure I can't understand how difficult that is. Secondly, I know that there is a fear of being singled out. It's not just the taboo but it's also attitudes toward mental health, both outside the military and inside the military, that somehow it is the problem of the person who's suffering from mental health challenges rather than the actual problem of our response to those challenges. I really do thank you very much for being here.
There's a sort of disconnect we're seeing in these hearings. We heard from Canadian Armed Forces personnel on the question of access that 90% of positions are filled and we have guidelines on waits, yet what we heard from you today as families is that there are significant problems with access to services. We did not see any acknowledgement of that in the formal presentations from the Canadian Armed Forces. Thank you for reinforcing what we're hearing from all families.
There's also a disconnect on the question of self-harm being in the code of conduct. We heard from Rear-Admiral Bernatchez that there are no charges laid so this is not a problem, as if the code of conduct is not the foundation for all discipline within the military.
My specific question today is about the response of the Canadian Armed Forces in particular to suicidal ideations. What I've heard many times before is that discipline is often the first response, and if it's not formal discipline it's measures that look an awful lot like discipline to the person who's suffering from those mental health challenges.
Maybe, Madam Archambault, I could start with you. Did it seem that discipline was the first recourse from the Canadian Armed Forces?
12:15 p.m.
Social Service Worker, Laurentian Integrated Health and Social Services Centre, As an Individual
I can't say it was a disciplinary thing. But I can say that it was pushed aside, that it wasn't always taken seriously. In our case, I sent a message because I feared for my husband's life. I had made videos of him behaving in certain ways, but I didn't get a response for several days. The decision was made to medicate him, thinking it would pass, but unfortunately, the attempt was made.
As I explained earlier, we are in the process of separating. For sure, I fear for the future, because my husband is still sick.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Archambault.
It's very important that you've mentioned the Facebook group with 85 members. I think there's a tendency for the military to say, “We have some isolated cases”. I thank you for the work you're doing there to bring people together. There's strength in doing so.
Mr. Chauhan, on the question of discipline as part of the military response, could you comment on your brother's situation?
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't think I could speak on his behalf or know what he was facing when it was recognized that he had any psychological issues. What I have heard from peers, though, was that folks or soldiers who have gone to sick parade with suicidal ideations have not been treated immediately. Despite going in and saying that this is how they're feeling, they still had to wait months before they were referred to the appropriate professional. Within their place of work, within their units, they are extremely reluctant to discuss it or to raise it with their chain of command. There is a very strong stigma that exists.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
My impression is that, of course, when people are removed from their work and when there are restrictions on others communicating with them, it would feel an awful lot like discipline to the person who is struggling with those issues.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Madame Cyr, on the same question to you about the response to mental health challenges, the response to complaints of harassment, have you seen a response with disciplinary measures?