Evidence of meeting #13 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was suicide.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
That's fine.
Was your brother with JPSU, the joint personnel support unit, once he had been pulled from his unit?
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Was he on a waiting list to see a psychologist, a psychiatrist, somebody professional?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
He had been seen.... He was on medical category. He had gotten treatment and was removed from the medical category, and then promoted and continued to be heavily medicated. I don't know if, towards the end, he continued to receive any psychiatric or psychological services.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Suicide is sometimes downplayed as a person having had a predisposition to it due to life experiences prior to joining the forces.
Is there any reason to think your brother was predisposed to mental illness?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
It definitely runs in the family. As I said, my grandmother committed suicide. He did have a previous attempt in 2000 when he was based in Edmonton.
I would say yes.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
With your brother was it a traumatic experience in theatre, or do you know if it had anything to do with carrying out duties that may be perceived as unethical or even outside the laws of armed conflict? Do you have any idea what was bothering him and triggered it?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I think there are several things to the largest factors. Something shifted in him after his tour to Afghanistan. That's when he started drinking.
He was released from the forces in 2000 and rejoined in 2007, when he hadn't had a drink in several years. After Afghanistan he started drinking heavily. In Iraq he lost a friend. One of his peers was killed over there, and I think that really changed him.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Madame Cyr, you mentioned that suicides are often hidden or buried. How are suicides in the military hidden or buried? If a suicide is not made public either in news or implied in an obituary, if there is even an obituary, are you saying these suicides are not counted?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
Often, suicides aren't counted because they are passed off as something else, or simply because the person is said to have died by suicide for personal reasons and not for reasons related what they experienced in the forces. Often, too, this will be covered up by saying it was an accidental death. The word “suicide” won't be put in the obituary.
It happens even among us, in the army. One of my colleagues killed himself the day before he returned from Afghanistan, in our lovely chemical toilets, and it was made to look like an accident in Afghanistan, which wasn't the reality. Today, I am still fine, but that's why I said that I would notify the media if I ever decided to do it. It's to demystify this.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Is there any way that you're aware of to track veterans who commit suicide?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
We talk to the person's family and friends and we watch their behaviour. Sometimes they confide in us. At the coffee shop that I bought, at one point, someone started crying as he was petting one of our cats. He let it out. He was having suicidal thoughts. I chatted with him and told him what I had experienced in the forces. I told him that I had also had suicidal thoughts. Eventually, I was able to lift his spirits a little. However, family and friends really need to listen to the person.
It's very easy for the military to hide the situation from people. It is not talked about. They say it is not suicide or that the person committed suicide for personal reasons, not for reasons related to the forces.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you very much.
I'm afraid it's over to Mr. Baker now, please.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
My thanks to the witnesses for joining us and for their testimony.
I am sorry for what you had to go through. The events you have described are appalling.
I only have four minutes and perhaps not all the witnesses will be able to respond. I will begin with Ms. Archambault.
You said that there were no mental health services in place and you talked about the barriers to accessing them. Can you describe the ideal system? What should be in place? What experience have you and your family had with the support from the Canadian Armed Forces?
12:45 p.m.
Social Service Worker, Laurentian Integrated Health and Social Services Centre, As an Individual
First, there should be a way to detect problems. As I said earlier, members who return home after a mission are in a sort of grey area for a while. They will go see a social worker or someone who will conduct a short assessment, but that is not enough to detect problem behaviours. The unfortunate thing is that the family is not involved at that stage. If they were, it could really make a difference. I could have said, for example, that my husband got up last night and was scratching the wall, he was looking for his gun, I touched him, he grabbed me by the hair, he was screaming, crying, throwing up. If I had given that information, which he didn't know because he was asleep, it might have changed things.
There is also the consent that we hear so much about. The member must give his consent to have access to a service. At the beginning, my husband was certainly very angry with me. He felt that I was destroying his career, that I wanted to trap him. These people develop hypervigilance and extreme mistrust. The need for this darned consent meant that, instead of waiting one year to get access to care, we suffered alone at home for 10 years. That's how long it took for him to finally accept help because he never wanted to ask for it.
In addition, the family must play a central role, when a member returns from a mission or even if they do not go abroad. All sorts of things may cause post-traumatic stress. When you have a concern or when a change in behaviour is reported, it is important to consider it.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you.
You talked about the mental health services you received in a civilian hospital in Toronto. I'm wondering what services should be provided by the Canadian Forces. That is what I am trying to understand as a member of Parliament. Should services like those you received in Toronto be available to people like you and your family?
12:45 p.m.
Social Service Worker, Laurentian Integrated Health and Social Services Centre, As an Individual
Yes, that's sort of what helped me understand things better. We took the time that was needed. I stayed there for a number of days and I trained with all sorts of experts. We think that post-traumatic stress makes people violent, but it is more than that. Something physical happens in the brain.
In my husband's case, things in the frontal lobe don't work anymore because the cortisol level is too high. This has lifelong consequences and sometimes we are not aware of it. Family members need to understand and respond to some of the consequences of PTSD. You need to know what you are dealing with. It would be nice to be able to take some brief training on a smaller scale, as it is still very expensive. There could be an awareness day explaining the disorder to families and children. Children don't understand why daddy is suddenly screaming and has no patience. There are books on the subject and they should be promoted a little more. It is important to have access to a specialist who can explain what it is, because getting information on the Internet can be very scary.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
We will go to Mr. Bezan, then we'll go to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe and then Mr. Garrison.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Through you to our witnesses. Thanks for the candour and the input you're providing on this very important study.
Mr. Chauhan, our deepest condolences on the loss of your brother. Your ability to share your experience, as a veteran, as a soldier and a family member who lost one to suicide is invaluable to this committee.
If we had more time, I'd love to drill down with Madame Archambault about the role of the military family resource centres and what can be done differently there. I'd like to talk more in depth with Madame Cyr about pet therapy and the importance of it to mental health for our veterans and those who are currently serving in the Canadian Armed Forces and how we can provide better opportunities for pet therapy.
Because of the time we have, I want to focus on Mr. Chauhan and his expertise.
I really appreciate all the comments you made earlier. You talked about the town hall situation and whether or not veterans would come out. When I was parliamentary secretary to the minister of defence, we had a number of town halls across the country. They were off base, so people could come forward both as veterans and currently serving members to talk about their injuries, both visible and invisible. I was very surprised by how forthright they were and how many complaints they had. I was able to have senior officers with me dressed as civilians, who were able to hear for the first time about where there were gaps in the programs.
You talked about how measurement drives behaviour and the metrics around that. I've always believed that if you don't measure it, you can't manage it. If we're going to make these significant changes.... You mentioned the Israel Defense Forces and how they've been able to get their numbers down. If you look at the metrics they're using, what do we need to do differently here in Canada, so the Canadian Armed Forces can make the changes that are so necessary for reducing suicide?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
First, I'd just like to mention that, in terms of town halls, when you're talking physical injuries in the forces, it's easy for someone to talk about that because it's understood, it's recognized, it's visible and a person isn't faking it. A psychological disorder, however, or any sort of mental angst or mental wellness issue is viewed as weakness generally, so those open discussions wouldn't occur.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I'll just say that they did occur in our conversations. By and large, most of the discussions were around PTSD. Some guys would talk about their physical injuries, but most of it was talking about their PTSD, which at that point in time was still really being defined a decade ago.
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
I also think PTSD is more common. Members can talk openly about it because they all experience it. They're all in theatre together. Depression, anxiety and how we all react to certain life pressures varies. One person may be able to take it all stride and another person may not. That's where I think that stigma comes from.
In terms of the metrics and the specific actions the IDF has taken, I wasn't able to find that. I'm still digging to try to understand what they've done. They did note that it's been a few years that they've been working at it and are now enjoying the benefits of it.
I wanted to share as well that in the entire departmental plan for National Defence, there's only one sentence about a suicide strategy. It simply says to hire more resources. That's the message or the takeaway I got, as opposed to something more meaningful or trying to reduce it by x amount. I feel they're just words. Until there's actual quantified inputs that are listed, I don't feel it's a meaningful initiative.