National Defence Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2021

[Marie Deschamps, Former Justice, Supreme Court of Canada, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Perhaps my presentation will help you—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Stand by for one minute, please.

Madam, may I ask you to speak a little bit louder? If you could raise your voice a couple of decibels, that might make the difference. It was even difficult to hear you in your native language.

My apologies for the interruption. Go ahead, please.

[Marie Deschamps]

All right. Usually, people tell me I speak too loudly.

How is that? Can you hear me now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Yes, thank you.

[Marie Deschamps]

Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen, thank you.

My presentation will be very brief. I have given you some notes, but this morning's headlines might make me change the order of the points in my presentation.

My report is already more than six years old, since I held my interviews in 2014. As I listen to the comments, I have the impression that today little has changed.

First, with respect to the allegations concerning General Vance, you won't be surprised to hear that I was completely unaware of them. I was in contact with General Vance on a number of occasions and, at first, I felt that he was not being given an accurate picture of the situation. However, there was a changing of the guard and afterwards I felt that the information he was receiving was a little more accurate. I know this is one of your committee's concerns.

The second concern relates to what is being done more generally in the Canadian Armed Forces regarding sexual misconduct. I have already read the strategy entitled “The Path to Dignity and Respect: The Canadian Forces Sexual Misconduct Response Strategy”. I have already shared my comments with those who have consulted me. I told them that I expected to find concrete measures in the document regarding its implementation. Unfortunately, I found none. I was told that they were in other, more tactical documents instead.

Today, I thought I would present you with some very concrete measures. I believe they should have been implemented over the past five years, but your committee could quite easily press for them. The first one I'm going to talk to you about was already among the topics I had thought of, but after reading the Global News headlines this morning, I changed the order of the points in my presentation, as I was telling you. When I read that Major Brennan did not know where to turn, I had a hard time understanding that. In fact, as early as 2015, with the creation of the Sexual Misconduct Response Centre, of which Ms. Preston is the executive director, I had indicated that the centre should have the mandate to be the primary authority for receiving reports. So when I read that Major Brennan did not know where to turn, I find it incredible that the centre has not yet been given that mandate.

I have seen the changes to the defence administrative orders and directives, and nowhere in them does it say that the centre has the authority to receive reports, let alone that it is the lead authority. As I see it, this could be implemented concretely and without delay.

The second point I want to present to you is very concrete, and one measure could be implemented as a priority. It is the issue of data.

You have already heard Ms. Preston indicate that data collection is her priority.

Again, in the mandate of the centre that I recommended be created in 2015, I indicated that it should be the lead authority for gathering data. By 2014, I had found that several databases existed, but that they were not communicating with each other. The data was not being collated in a consistent way.

Therefore, if you find a charge or prosecution for assault, the database will not indicate whether the charge is sexual assault. I mention that to give you an idea. I'm not going to teach you the importance of good data in assessing problems and finding solutions. It's fundamental if we want to hold people accountable.

Not only is the centre not the central authority, it does not even have direct access to the data. In my opinion, giving the centre this responsibility or at least giving it access to the data seems to me to be a priority.

I will stick to these two points because I want to give you time to ask your questions. I congratulate you in advance for the work you will be doing.

I'm curious to know whether the interpreters were able to grasp what I said.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much, Ms. Deschamps.

I will now open the floor for questions, and we will begin with Mr. Bezan, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and I want to thank all our witnesses for coming in today to speak about these very serious allegations.

I have to say that after seeing the interview with Major Kellie Brennan yesterday, I have to applaud her for her bravery and her candour. I'm more deeply disturbed now about these allegations than ever before.

Thinking back on the minister appearing at committee on Friday, Minister Sajjan just provided a bunch of non-answers. It upset me all weekend that he wouldn't address even the simplest thing, including confirming the meeting with former defence ombudsman Gary Walbourne. Either the minister was trying to protect himself, when really he should be worried about protecting members of the Canadian Armed Forces who, as our witnesses said so eloquently today, aren't sure where they even should be reporting to despite there being the sexual misconduct response centre, which has been established now for six years.... It is very disturbing.

Colonel Drapeau, you have made some comments in the media. I appreciate that you have that knowledge from serving in the Canadian Armed Forces as well as from being a lawyer who has specialized in the National Defence Act and military justice. Do you feel, based on what's transpired here over the last month, that Minister Sajjan properly exercised his authority and responsibilities to the Canadian Armed Forces as prescribed under the National Defence Act?

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

To be clear, absolutely not. As I said in my opening remarks, he had in fact the duty and the facility, if he wanted to, to have the matter investigated. He could have appointed one of the military judges as a board of inquiry to get to the bottom of it and then act on it. Why did he not do this?

General Vance and Minister Sajjan are known identities who go back to at least 2009 when General Vance recommended in fact the posting, the appointment, of Major Sajjan, as he was at the time, for service in Afghanistan. They go back at least 10 or close to 15 years—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

As we expected, we are unfortunately having interpretation issues.

It's very important to me that I understand what is being said.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Okay. Stand by.

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

Could the minister have investigated it because the ombudsman could not? Yes, he could have by relying upon section 45 and you already know that he even had the tools to do this. Had he investigated it, he would have been in a better position to report in a factual matter to the Privy Council Office as he—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, I have another point of order. I don't understand why the witness is continuing. He needs to stop.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We're having trouble understanding you, Colonel Drapeau. Stand by.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Chair, would we be able to get Colonel Drapeau on the phone? I thought we were going to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

They're trying to do that right now. Thank you.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I do have more questions for Colonel Drapeau.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I've stopped your time, Mr. Bezan. You'll get your remaining two and a half minutes when we get Colonel Drapeau on the phone.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay.

While we're waiting for that, Madam Chair, based upon what Colonel Drapeau said in his opening comments, I'm going to drop the following motion and we can deal with it right now. I'll have my staff send it to the clerk so it can be circulated. It has been translated.

The motion reads:

That, in respect of the committee’s study regarding the allegations of sexual misconduct against former Chief of Defence Staff General Jonathan Vance, that the committee summon Gary Walbourne, former National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman, to appear for at least two hours before the committee at a date and time determined by the Chair but no later than ten days following the adoption of this motion, that the committee hearing take place in public and be televised.

I'm putting forward that motion now. Madam Chair, we can either deal with it while we're waiting for Colonel Drapeau to be hooked up by phone, or we can save it until after these witnesses and before we start our next section of witnesses in half an hour's time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Bezan, if you would like, we could reserve 15 minutes at the end of the meeting to discuss the motion.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I do want the motion dealt with today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Would that be acceptable?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

That is acceptable.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Going back to our previous discussion about summoning witnesses and which witnesses, I think perhaps that 15 minutes should be in camera.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I disagree. It's been tabled in public. I think we should deal with this in public. I think that in the interest of transparency, in the interest of making sure that the Canadian Armed Forces and those members currently serving who have a lot of questions regarding whether they are being listened to.... I think it's important that we have these debates in public.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Bezan, we already did invite the former ombudsman to come and testify.