Evidence of meeting #16 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was allegations.
A video is available from Parliament.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Madam Deschamps, could you hold your microphone out there? That's correct.
Try it again, please.
Noon
Former Justice, Supreme Court of Canada, As an Individual
Perfect. I'll start again, in the second official language. Or the first, depending on how you look at it.
In 2014, victims—mostly women—who were not ready to file a complaint really had no recourse. I recommended that victims of harassment or assault have a place to go for support. Supporting victims is the primary concern. In my mind, it had to be clear where that place was, and it was the centre.
At that point, I also recommended that someone act as an advocate. I did not mention this in the concrete points I brought up earlier. This person could take charge of the case, talk to the victim and lead them to be sufficiently recovered and comfortable to lodge a complaint. The person acting as an advocate could support the victim and help them decide where they wanted to make a complaint.
In a few words, that was the recommendation I made in 2015.
Noon
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
Dr. Preston, if you could answer that same question, I'd appreciate it.
Noon
Executive Director, Sexual Misconduct Response Centre, Department of National Defence
Thank you very much for the question.
In practice, the way it happens is very similar to what Madam Deschamps has explained.
The centre is a confidential place for people to come and lay allegations, make complaints and discuss their experiences. Our counsellors will provide whatever services, whatever support they need. We don't require reporting. We don't force reporting. We very much take our cue based on what CAF members want to do. We will support them and provide them with options and choices.
We also have a service called the response and support coordination program, where we will assign a dedicated counsellor to the CAF members, if they so desire. That counsellor will fulfill all the roles that Madam Deschamps talked about—advocacy, accompaniment, support, helping negotiate the whole journey that they're going on—and really be a partner to them throughout the entire journey, if and when they decide to report.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you, Mr. Baker.
We will move to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe, s'il vous plaît.
Noon
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My thanks to all the witnesses for being here today. We are having some technical issues and I'm sorry for that, but the House staff are doing everything they can to make this meeting possible. I would like to commend and thank them for that.
My first question is for Mr. Drapeau. You said earlier that, under section 45 of the National Defence Act, the Minister has the power to step in.
Why do you feel he didn't step in at that time, since he had the power to do so?
Noon
Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau
Various reasons are possible, but I can't put my finger on the exact reason. He certainly had the authority to set up a commission of inquiry, as I mentioned. That would be the appropriate thing to do under the circumstances.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Colonel Drapeau, you need to slow down a little bit and speak with your parade voice or we're not going to be able to use our great interpreters.
Noon
Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau
There is probably the fact that the Minister had known General Vance for at least a decade. If I remember correctly, they had met in 2009, when General Vance had requested that Minister Sajjan, who was a major at the time, go to Afghanistan. They served together. They were comrades-in-arms in a theatre of operations for a decade. They likely had a relatively open conversation that met the Minister's expectations and answered his questions.
In my opinion, that is the only reason that might explain why no formal action was taken at that time.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Drapeau.
Ms. Deschamps, I found your testimony very interesting, much like that of all the other witnesses, by the way.
You said that you felt that General Vance did not necessarily have the appropriate information at one point. Could you explain how he was provided with such information, that is, a misrepresentation of the situation?
12:05 p.m.
Former Justice, Supreme Court of Canada, As an Individual
I've already explained in my report that the higher people move up the ladder, the more likely they are to move on to other things. So he was surrounded by fairly high-ranking people who saw the situation in a rather rosy light. He was told that almost all of the recommendations were being implemented, that it was almost all done.
When I first met him, I was very surprised and told him that, in fact, that was not what I was hearing. Eventually there was a changing of the guard. The information then became more accurate.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
How did he react when you told him that the view was a little too rosy for your taste?
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
12:05 p.m.
Former Justice, Supreme Court of Canada, As an Individual
He listened.
Things never happen very quickly in the army, but the guard changed eventually.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Deschamps.
Ms. Preston, I'd like you to comment on what Ms. Deschamps said about the Sexual Misconduct Response Centre's lack of power.
Yesterday, in the Global News interview, the alleged victim said she did not know who to go to. Isn't that a problem?
12:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Sexual Misconduct Response Centre, Department of National Defence
I'll address your first question, which is about the lack of power of the centre.
It is true that the centre I run does not have accountability over CAF. We have no authority over CAF. At best, what is in our mandate is that we are to monitor CAF's efforts to implement Operation Honour. In order for us to be able to monitor their efforts, we need to have access to certain information and certain sets of data. That is not something right now that is well established. It's certainly a priority we're continuing to work on.
With respect to the second part of your question about people not knowing about the centre, it is absolutely a critical priority for us to continue to raise awareness so that people are aware of the centre. Internal surveys do indicate that a large number of members are aware of the centre. They may or may not have actually used our services, but they are aware of it. However, we continue to conduct outreach on an ongoing basis. We travel across the country and visit bases and wings and do quite extensive outreach. However, clearly it's an indication that we need to do more.
Thank you.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Preston.
Madam Chair, do I have any time left?
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
That's not enough to ask a question. I will come back to it later.
Thank you, everyone.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Let me apologize if there are bandwidth problems. We have now lost Internet service to my house, so I'm tethered through my cellphone. Therefore, I have been in and out of the meeting and may have missed part of this discussion.
I want to start by thanking Major Brennan for her courage in coming forward over the weekend. I think the allegations she brought forward are extremely troubling, and I'm going to ask questions about whether Operation Honour and the Canadian forces can simply proceed as if nothing has happened here. I will not ask Dr. Preston or the brigadier-general those questions, because I believe that, as they are within the Department of National Defence or the Canadian Armed Forces, I would be putting them in a compromised position.
My first question is for Colonel Drapeau. It's a technical and legal question. Whether or not, as one of my colleagues suggested, we know if allegations were made to the minister, we do know allegations were made in 2018. That was confirmed by the Privy Council Office, whether or not they found them actionable.
In that circumstance, Colonel Drapeau, could the minister have removed the chief of the defence staff either from his position temporarily or at least from his position of being in charge of Operation Honour?