National Defence Committee on March 3rd, 2021

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I'm trying to understand better. You said there were a number of levers or a number of things that the minister could have done. Could you give us an example of what that could have been? In this case, what he apparently did—this is your testimony, so correct me if I'm wrong—was raise this with PCO. Within a day, you got a call from PCO, as you've indicated.

He did act. He raised it with PCO, but you suggest that there were other levers at his disposal. I'm curious about what those other levers are. What are those other actions that you believe he should, or could, have taken?

[Gary Walbourne]

Retired Colonel Drapeau was in front of the committee a little while back, and I think he clearly outlined what some of those levers were. He could have called an own motion investigation. He has that authority. There were other things he could do.

What kind of chafes me a little is that he did the exact opposite of what I asked him to do, which was to come back to me with advice. Instead, he punted it over to PCO and I was caught flat-footed when I arrived in their office.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You made a suggestion that he could have done what Mr. Drapeau recently suggested and initiated an investigation but, again, you said you have to protect the confidentiality of the witness and you cannot share the identity and at least some of the information necessary to pursue that investigation. You, yourself, said you couldn't pursue an investigation and have said that you couldn't go to the police or any other authorities that are available.

Again, how would the minister be able to initiate that investigation? Help me understand that.

[Gary Walbourne]

Well, let's talk about visibility. Let's just say that the minister took it and said, “I'm going to call my own motion investigation.” He could have called that victim and had a conversation, and maybe he'd have found other things in the environment.

You're asking me to suppose what the minister could have done and what he should have done. There are many levers inside the NDA and other levers inside of cabinet that he can pull and bring to bear. His decision was to punt it over to the PCO, and that's where we find ourselves today.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

How would he call that person if you need to protect that person's identity to protect their confidentiality?

[Gary Walbourne]

With any lead back from the minister, I would have reached back to the victim, told her what I was in the process of doing and where I was. I would ask her at that time whether I would be able to release their name to the minister. I probably would have gotten a yes, knowing that they had that type of top coverage. That's what would have happened.

Even though I say informal/formal investigations, we don't get an informal complaint and just drop it. We deal with the person. We make sure they're where they need to be, that they have the resources, that they're feeling okay. We follow up for self-help and those types of things.

Many things could have happened.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Not enough, I'm afraid.

We'll go on to Ms. Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to continue on that line, if I could.

Could I ask you this? You were not obligated to bring absolutely everything to the Minister of National Defence. Is that correct?

[Gary Walbourne]

That's correct.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Therefore, we would be correct in saying that you used your discretion in terms of what you brought forward to the Minister of National Defence.

[Gary Walbourne]

Where I had the opportunity to use discretion, I did.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

That discretion would be around the severity or the seriousness that you felt, in your own opinion, was therefore worthy and something that the minister should know.

[Gary Walbourne]

That's correct.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

By bringing this particular allegation to the minister, one could infer that you interpreted it as serious enough that the minister needed to know.

[Gary Walbourne]

That's correct.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

You and the minister do not have the same authority. Is that a fair statement?

[Gary Walbourne]

For sure.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Also, the abilities, authorities and responsibilities that you have are different from those of the Minister of National Defence.

[Gary Walbourne]

Yes.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

The CDS is not the same level, but you have no authority over the chief of the defence staff.

[Gary Walbourne]

That's correct.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

The only person between you, the CDS, the JAG and the deputy minister who has authority over the CDS is the Minister of National Defence. Is that correct?

[Gary Walbourne]

That's correct.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

What you could do with the information is far different from what the minister could do with the information.