Evidence of meeting #18 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Would you characterize that pushing you out and investigating your office and staff was an attempt at a cover-up?
2:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I don't know if it was an attempt at a cover-up, but I know it was a full-court press to get rid of me.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Do you believe that Minister Sajjan should face the music, so to say, for his lack of action, because of what you told him in 2018 and leaving this ride until 2021, and for three years doing nothing and actually even recommending General Vance for a major raise from the Privy Council Office?
2:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I don't have an opinion on that one way or the other. The only thing I ever wanted the minister to do was his job.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
In your work with the minister, were there any other concerns that ever came up about the chain of command, and particularly about General Vance and the way he was fulfilling his duties, as it would fall under your responsibility as ombudsman?
2:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Again, anything that has come to my office, I hold in confidence. I will not release the names of any individuals or any types of complaints that have come to this office.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I'm not asking for names. I'm just asking if there were other concerns that you had about General Vance, aside from the one allegation that you presented to MinisterSajjan.
2:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
One moment, please.
No.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you very much. Your time is up, Mr. Bezan.
We'll go on to Mr. Baker, please.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr. Walbourne, was it your understanding when you were the ombudsman that DAOD 5047-1, Office of the Ombudsman, Annex A, the ministerial directive, outlined the authorities and responsibilities of the ombudsman?
2:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Yes. That's correct.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay.
You received a complaint regarding concerns over the conduct of the former chief of the defence staff, correct?
2:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
That's correct.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
2:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
That's correct.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay.
As per section 20.(1) of the directives related to the ombudsperson's activities pursuant to complaints, did you thoroughly investigate the complaint? As we know, section 20.(1) states, and I quote:
20.(1) If an investigation is necessary to carry out the Ombudsman's mandate in connection with a complaint received by the Ombudsman, the Ombudsman shall thoroughly investigate the complaint.
2:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Yes, that's correct.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay. Just to clarify, did you thoroughly investigate the complaint?
2:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I can only investigate the complaint with the complainant's authorization to do so, and I did not have their authorization to investigate, so no, I could not have done an investigation, but this particular allegation was made. I've heard many allegations across my time as ombudsperson as I went across this country, but this allegation was made, and I was given concrete evidence, irrefutable concrete evidence, that the allegation....
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay. I guess, then, I can.... Is it fair to say that you did not start an official thorough investigation?
2:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I took the investigation as far as I could with the complainant's authority.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay, but there was not an official, thorough investigation. Is that right?
2:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I'll have to repeat the same answer. Sorry. I took the investigation as far as I could with the complainant's authority.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay. Given that a thorough investigation could not be done by you alone, who else in your office looked into the complaint? I ask this because, as we know, in section 7:
Any of the powers, duties or functions of the Ombudsman under these directives, other than the power of delegation and the duty or power of submitting or publishing reports under section 38, may be delegated by the Ombudsman to any member of the Ombudsman's staff.